So, you would say that buying cheap goods, in the end, harms the poorest by supporting and perpetuating their exploitation? — Question
I've defined power in this case as having his orders followed. He can get his orders followed, therefore he is powerful. — Agustino
No, I haven't said it's just that. In fact, power has nothing with making people do what YOU want, only with making people do something. — Agustino
That's not true, I am completing what I have said as I say more. I hope you're not naive enough to think I can express all my views regarding power, the law, how society functions, etc. in just 1 or 2 posts right? You should stop drawing conclusions so fast and start listening more carefully - especially you should stop drawing conclusions that I've never made myself.because you are changing what you have said, as you say more — Metaphysician Undercover
For example, I make them do what my boss wants them to do. You have to understand that getting people to do something doesn't necessarily have to align with my will.What could "making people do something", which is not "making people do what you want", possibly mean? — Metaphysician Undercover
I haven't said this. This is exactly the bullshit that you do. I said that authority, laws, etc. don't exist unless they are enforced.You think that authority, laws, etc., to be effective, must be enforced. — Metaphysician Undercover
I said there are circumstances when you cannot force others to do as you want them to. There's also circumstances when you can force others to do as you want them to. I have even given you examples. I cannot force my wife to do as I want to, because that's not how power works in that relationship. I can, however, force my client to do as I want him, because power can work that way in that relationship.So if you accept, and respect the fact that you cannot force others to do what you want them to do, how does your system of laws and authority possibly work, when it is based in the principle of enforcement? — Metaphysician Undercover
Your employer might not care about you, as you're a simple substitute in the grand scheme of things; but, the person buying from you wants you to be there, producing and living to produce the goods s/he demands from your employer. — Question
I haven't said this. This is exactly the bullshit that you do. I said that authority, laws, etc. don't exist unless they are enforced. — Agustino
For example, I make them do what my boss wants them to do. You have to understand that getting people to do something doesn't necessarily have to align with my will. — Agustino
I said that authority, laws, etc. don't exist unless they are enforced. — Agustino
I've told you that you think very naively, precisely because you think power functions univocally, and the same means will be used regardless of circumstance. But that's not true. If I'm a politician, I can force someone to drop out of the race, and let me run in their place, if for example I have access to sensitive information on them. I won't be able to do the same in a personal relationship. Obviously. Power doesn't function the same way across the border. — Agustino
:s You are greatly puzzling me. What do you think enforcement of rules is if not the application of punishment for breaking them, whether that punishment is a temporary salary cut, being fired, etc. Rules are enforced precisely when punishments are applied for breaking them. The existence and application of punishment is enforcement.Ok, so let's take this example then. In the work place, you can get people to do what your boss wants of them. Isn't it the case that the people are following the company rules, to get things done the way that the boss wants them done, without you enforcing the rules? The people are getting paid to follow the rules, and payment is incentive to them, so that they want to follow rules. It is not the case that the rules are "enforced", and in most countries it would be illegal to enforce the rules. If one does not follow the company rules it may be possible to fire that person, but this is not a case of forcing one to follow the rules, it is case of dismissing the person who does not follow the rules. — Metaphysician Undercover
Money is a form of power, not equivalent to power I would say.Since money allows your boss to get others to do what they are supposed to do, do you think that money is equivalent to power, or is money a form of power? — Metaphysician Undercover
First you talk about laws, then you talk about company rules. Decide. They're not exactly the same.I think it is the case that many laws exist which are not enforced. There are laws which are willfully followed, and it is simply a matter of people knowing the law, and wanting to follow the law, that supports the law. Clearly, in the work place, the rules are followed not because they are enforced, but for this reason, because people they want to remain a member of the company, take home their salary, so they learn the laws, and follow them. — Metaphysician Undercover
No it doesn't indicate that. Again, you're jumping to conclusions. It only indicates that enforcement is not sufficient to get you to follow laws.This is the reason why I follow laws, not because the laws are enforced, but because I learn the laws, know them, and then I decide which ones of them, and in which situations, I should and should not follow them. The fact that I decide not to follow some laws some times, despite the threat of punishment by force, indicates that it is not enforcement which inclines me to follow laws. — Metaphysician Undercover
In any case, you're not talking about education, but rather how to get people to believe something. Propaganda has the same aim, and I doubt you'd call that education. Brute force, as I have stated before, is the least effective way to get someone to obey, which is why it generally is used last, when all other methods have failed.Since it is really education, and training, which inclines people to follow laws, thereby supporting the existence of laws, and not enforcement as you keep insisting, the don't you think that the capacity to educate people is also a form of power? — Metaphysician Undercover
Knowledge and education can be sources of power, as can money. Again, power doesn't have only one form. What you fail to note is that power constitutes the ability to get people to do something. There are multiple ways of doing this: one is brute force, another is propaganda, another is manipulation, another is education, etc.But force is an abuse of power, an evil, and evil is the manifestation of ignorance. Since you do not recognize true power as knowledge and education, it is quite obvious that you yourself, are uneducated. — Metaphysician Undercover
You are greatly puzzling me. What do you think enforcement of rules is if not the application of punishment for breaking them, whether that punishment is a temporary salary cut, being fired, etc. Rules are enforced precisely when punishments are applied for breaking them. The existence and application of punishment is enforcement. — Agustino
No it doesn't indicate that. Again, you're jumping to conclusions. It only indicates that enforcement is not sufficient to get you to follow laws. — Agustino
In any case, you're not talking about education, but rather how to get people to believe something. Propaganda has the same aim, and I doubt you'd call that education. Brute force, as I have stated before, is the least effective way to get someone to obey, which is why it generally is used last, when all other methods have failed. — Agustino
Knowledge and education can be sources of power, as can money. Again, power doesn't have only one form. What you fail to note is that power constitutes the ability to get people to do something. There are multiple ways of doing this: one is brute force, another is propaganda, another is manipulation, another is education, etc. — Agustino
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