Then why don't they just call it consciousness?
— Eugen
I'm not sure. Maybe they want to avoid potential accusations of anthrpomorphization. They perhaps want to avoid being accused of saying that atoms fondly remember days of their youth in stars and regret they are now stuck in some cold asteroid a zillion miles from anywhere interesting. So instead of this kind of conscious experience we as humans are familiar with, they give the experiences of atoms, whatever they might be, a different name to distance them from us. I don't know. I haven't read much by people who are specifically pan-proto-psychists. — bert1
↪prothero So you're saying Penrose is actually referring to phenomenal consciousness but he calls it proto-consciousness just because most of people conflate consciousness with self-awareness? — Eugen
↪prothero I would agree with you if it weren't for...well...Chalmers. He's got a paper on proto-consciousness and for him it is non-experiencial, it's not consciousness, but it's not matter either. Because of that, I can't be sure Penrose isn't on the same track. — Eugen
↪prothero I always appreciate your contribution, and I'm interested in improving my understanding of Whitehead and process philosophy, although you're right in saying that we come at these questions from highly divergent perspectives and it's a difficult division to navigate. I've been reading a book on philosophy of physics, Nature Loves to Hide, Shimon Malin, which incorporates many of Whitehead's ideas. Still working through it. — Wayfarer
You fundamentally implied you are not a monist?
You also implied you limit any type of mental aspect to living forms? — prothero
I'd best not get into that here, it's completely different from whatever it is that Roger Penrose is describing. But I do agree that his 'proto-consciousness' seems pretty close to panpsychism, and also that it might be compatible with process philosophy. — Wayfarer
Consciousness is the word we give to certain features of certain organisms... — Metamorphosis
Well... at first it sounded good, but then I asked myself: is water vague? I don't think so. Water is H2O. So I don't think vagueness is an argument for consciousness being fundamental or so.
What do you think? — Eugen
Sure if you want to talk mumbo jumbo... If someone gets hit on the head and is in a hospital bed it's not always clear whether they're conscious or not — Metamorphosis
f you want to just argue the philosopher jargon you've memorized, — Metamorphosis
Consciousness... it's a vague word because ultimately life is transient and fleeting — Metamorphosis
Of course the normal definition is that someone is conscious if they can say they are and they can back it up with continued dialogue — Metamorphosis
And we normally think other complex organisms like primates and other mammals are probably conscious because they show similar abilities without being able to use human language... Like being able to pass the mirror test and all that — Metamorphosis
But seriously consciousness is just vague because it touches on our cultural conceptions which often are shrouded in superstition and a history of magical thinking — Metamorphosis
For a long time in history we thought life was a substance or an essence that was different than immaterial objects — Metamorphosis
But now we know that life is evolved complex chemistry. So consciousness is just the ability of certain organisms and that's completely a matter of definition and how we define the term and what we entail it to mean — Metamorphosis
But again most people are naturally duelists in their thinking and they think in terms of mind and matter as separate... — Metamorphosis
Consciousness is ultimately a human construct like intelligence or awareness or even beauty or health. — Metamorphosis
Or if someone gets Alzheimer's and slowly loses their personality and ability to communicate then there's not always a clear line dillionating between consciousness and non-consciousness — Metamorphosis
I mean come on if someone slowly loses their mental faculties does not like a moment where they're no longer conscious but we can kind of see that their organismic abilities are slowly diminishing — Metamorphosis
But now we know that life is evolved complex chemistry. So consciousness is just the ability of certain organisms and that's completely a matter of definition and how we define the term and what we entail it to mean — Metamorphosis
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