• boethius
    2.4k
    My fellow forum enthusiasts, a little mystery of meaning to lighten your day:

    In several emails sent to different recipients, [Boethius] has stated that the police have committed a number of different offences. [Boethius] has stated that he has reported the offences he suspects, including but not limited to money laundering, aggravated fraud, aggravated extortion and a variety of offences involving business operations, to several parties. He has contacted the [baddassery] Bureau of Investigation's Financial Intelligence Unit last April, but did not receive any reply or enquiry regarding the evidence he presented. He has also reported the matters in person at the [baddass] police station, the [baddassery] Bureau of Investigation, the [badder ass] police station and the [baddest of all asses] police station. He was ejected from the [badder ass] police station. In addition to the police failing to investigate the matters he has reported, [Boethius] has justified cause to believe that the police is planning to murder him due to the reports he has filed. The investigations against [Boethius] himself are groundless and caused by the reports he has lodged. The police, prosecutors and judges are covering up corruption and are thus involved in the offences, such as money laundering and corruption. In addition, [Boethius] suspects that police documents are being edited and/or deleted. In his emails, [Boethius] mentions by name [Beevus], [Butthead] and [Squeebo], among others. — prosecutors in my country

    Appears in a document I got access to through a request for information. Where I live, once a case is closed, you can get all the documents about it.

    This particular document is a decision to not investigate further, but only on a very limited scope of jurisdiction (that did not include jurisdiction over the crimes mentioned in the first sentence, for example), and other prosecutors are currently reviewing those crimes.

    I have pointed out to the current prosecutors that this paragraph, putting aside the fact it's an original decision in English for strange reason (direct contradiction of the language act in the jurisdiction concerned) and has simply false statements ... just states there's plan to murder me.

    That in English grammar, you'd definitely want to use parallel structure to make sure it's clear the claim is I'm claiming this, which was not my claim (I just mentioned I feared police after being "ejected", or, assaulted as I had described it), but if you wanted to make the claim I'm claiming there's a plan to murder me, you'd want to make that pretty clear.

    Now, since the months I keep pointing this out, I haven't even received any counter analysis, or just apology that omitting the words "claims he" (as in [boethius] claims he has justified cause ...), in this sentence that just says on the face of it I should believe police are planning to murder me.

    So, clearly it's ambiguous at best (and easily disambiguated so can't blame me for assuming the sentence stands by itself when the author could have added two words to make the meaning clear, if indeed that was the meaning), but my reading is that the statements in the middle are clearly written, at least in English, to heavily imply it is the author making the statement, and not the author reporting what I'm reporting.

    In particular, obviously prosecutors would have access to whether I was "ejected" or not from a police station, so the natural expectation if that claim is not a prosecutor claim that they would make that clear (that I'm claiming I was "ejected", not that they've confirmed that; especially as if I was ejected, and that was assault, then their statement appearing as confirmation of, in the least, a physical altercation is good evidence in, say, a law suite against police; so, one would naturally assume prosecutors would be aware of what evidential claims could arise from the statements they are writing and if they did not confirm I was indeed, at least, "ejected"--a word I never used, but rather assaulted--they would make that clear to avoid my using their statements in court as evidence), so it's not only ambiguous at best, but difficult to believe prosecutors would not disambiguate the sentence so it's meaning and weight in further legal processes isn't clear (obviously simply noting what I say isn't the same weight of evidence as offering independent confirmation that prosecutors are also saying it).

    I also provided a possible motive of this ambiguity, as it would be quite important if the purpose is to further coverup police corruption and involvement in money laundering the statement "He has contacted the [baddassery] Bureau of Investigation's Financial Intelligence Unit last April, but did not receive any reply or enquiry regarding the evidence he presented," if understood as fact would explain not sending the evidence I provided to the Financial Intelligence Unit and obviously implies these crimes (that are outside the jurisdiction of this particular decision) seem to have, in any case, no evidence for them as the Financial Intelligence Unit did not react. If it did not appear as a independently verified fact, some other prosecutor may want to verify if it did indeed happen (obviously if I lied about sending things to the Financial Intelligence Unit or didn't really understand the interaction etc.) that maybe interesting for a prosecutor to look into, but if it appears as independent fact then seems all the t are crossed, whatever it is Financial Intelligence Unit has it and has deemed it unnactionable.

    So, there is important functional distinction of the ambiguity, as interpreted the way it seems, that the author is claiming these things (that he could easily verify) are indeed fact and not claiming to just be reporting what I say and has not verified what he could easily verify, which would actually be very odd to add "according to [Boethius] " as that just begs the question of whether it really happened or not.

    And why this is important is because the tons of evidence I provided that was outside the narrow jurisdiction of this prosecutor would be required by law to simply be sent to whoever has jurisdiction, which would obviously be the Financial Intelligence Unit when it comes to money laundering involving organisations (such as corporations).

    And why making that impression would be so important, is because I never sent any evidence to the Financial Intelligence Unit, and I did receive a reply (I asked for the Financial Intelligence Unit to review the evidence as I did not consider myself competent to do and I would prefer not to be the judge of it, and they replied that I should get an attorney to review the evidence; which is very different from what is claimed above in this internal prosecution analysis ... that clearly I was not supposed to request access to), so both claims are simply false, but critical false claims to make the decision to not investigate seem to make sense. My argument was that if I present clear evidence to police of money laundering and they don't even investigate, and my accusation is they have helped coverup that money laundering (by committing plenty of clear crimes in themselves) that clearly it is relevant if there's evidence of money laundering or not, even if it's (otherwise) outside the narrow jurisdiction of considering police crime.

    So, not only is it ambiguous (and easily disambiguated through parallel structure or some other grammatical device, or just saying "[Boethius] made the following claims), but there's good reason to purposefully imply these are now not reports of my claims but are independently verified facts about the status of evidence sent to the Financial Intelligence Unit.

    Of course, if that was indeed the purpose, the author should have had the presence of mind to then switch back to clearly stating I'm claiming police are planning to murder me, otherwise it's entirely natural to continue with the interpretation that these are independently verified facts and the author is simply claiming the police are planning to murder me, or at least I should believe that. Which the author then does, feeling the need to disambiguate "In addition, [Bothius] suspects that police documents are being edited and/or deleted." which is not quite what I claimed, I claimed it was one explanation of several confusing events and statements, but maybe documents are there and I could therefore easily verify nothing has been deleted or modified if I am given a copy of my original reports and evidence I submitted to compare with my original drafts, to which this prosecutor said he would provide me a copy of these documents ... but then never did. So a little mystery of what the documents are now. But, what's more important to present grammatical exercise is clearly the author understands disambiguating what I'm saying from what he's saying is something that is required when writing in English and there's a deliberate choice in this sentence about the documents but not in previous sentences; further emphasising that if he wanted to say I "suspected" police are planning to murder me then he'd just say that, he's perfectly capable. And again, there is a functional difference, as it's important to leave it at just "my suspicion" and not claim himself to have looked into it verified my original drafts and evidence have not been deleted or modified

    Now, my analysis has caused some problems for the prosecutors who are now reviewing the original police decisions about the original evidence about the original crimes, as I point out that until there's some reason to believe otherwise the statement there is a plan to murder me due to these reports (due to the evidence I possess and my witness testimony) should just be taken at face value and considered real until proven otherwise. Certainly, it's impossible to exclude that the prosecutor knew of a plan to murder me (as doing this favour for police would only work if I was no longer around to be able to provide the evidence of false statements, which is pretty clear and simple when it comes to claiming I received no reply from the Financial Intelligence Unit ... as it's a pretty binary thing and I just the email from the Financial Intelligence Unit to me, so it's honestly not clear what the plan is if I'm still around to say what actually happened with material evidence to backup my claims: prosecutor claims I received no reply, here's the reply").

    In which case, the statement of fact there is a plan to murder me seemed find to the prosecutor because they knew it to be true. Classical example of confusing the false narrative with the truth narrative when embarking on a coverup of serious organised crime.

    However, of course, as the forum well knows, I am as humble as I am open to learn, and so I have made clear that perhaps some English professor or otherwise better expert than me, as a native speaker, knows the rules of English grammar inside and out and can sign an opinion that the statement there is a plan to murder me is not ambiguous at all and no reasonable person would consider that even possible as an interpretation. "Nothing to see here," kind of thing (the problem the prosecutors have is that none of them are native English speakers so they can't just directly contradict me ... and of course, the problem wouldn't exist at all if the decision was written in an official language, as mandated by law, in which they would be experts and could easily tell me what it means and their word is final. But the problem in coverups is that it's often really messy and these sorts of mistakes happen. The reason to write in English is that without the ambiguity English provides in itself but also in making correspondence with the official law which is in another language, and also the fact other prosecutors wouldn't know English as well, the decision might just sound stupid if written in the official language with respect to the official law, as there's a bunch of other bullshit in the decision like claiming I did not want an investigation "enough" because I pointed out that money laundering is a crime against the state, it's in society's interest to investigate not necessarily my own interest, and from this )

    After several months of receiving no such expert opinion on the English language to replace my current understanding, I think it's an interesting exercise for the forum to consider this grammatical exercise.

    Definitely there are people who have more education in English than me on this forum and so I'd be curious to know, pending some expert opinion provided by the prosecutors, if there's merit to my interpretation of this sentence, which is just there's a plan to murder me because that's what the sentence says.

    But, since I was clearly never meant to read this document, maybe I'm just overly concerned as the subject of the sentence in which is described the murder said subject as well as not a "team player" in making a fuss about it and also pointing out if it is meant to say I made this claim, not only did I not make this claim I even wrote a whole letter to explicitly say I'm not making such a claim (just I have rational fear, due to being "ejected" for exercising a right I verified I had before going; the reason for "ejecting" me is that I did not have a right to report crime in their police station, that if I had a problem with the other police station I had to take it up with them, which is simply not how the law works in this particular jurisdiction; one has the right to report crime in any police station in the country).

    Anyways, if people are wondering what my day job is, it's dealing with this sort of madness.

    Also, if you're wondering about the investigations into me. I report money laundering, I'm placed under investigation, and have been for 2 whole years without ever being questioned, much less charged with anything. I'm still under investigation right now, sometimes I go to the police station and say I am under investigation for crime, I want to confess the truth, take things off my chest, pay my debts to society, be held accountable, and they at first super alert ... then make a phone call ... then tell me to leave. Which is not only insane police refusing the confession of a suspect they are investigating (even if it was false, they would still record it and then investigate the fact they think it's false and charge me with making false statements), but the crimes I'm suspected of you'd definitely want me to admit this was my signature, I wrote this etc. and rule out forgeries (which, for all I know, the evidence is all forged, I've never been asked about it).
  • boethius
    2.4k
    Also, to satisfy people's curiosity, the reply to my email requesting advise of what to do and my evidence be reviewed was the following:

    Dear Mr. [Bothethius],
    In response to your email on April 8th, 2021, we would propose for you to discuss with a [national] attorney / law firm many of which can be found on the internet and have information on their webpages also in English. They would be able to advise on what the civil and criminal law options would be in this case and would be able to provide support in filing a criminal complaint to the [baddass] police if that were the solution you would choose or possible civil law litigation options.
    Sincerely yours,
    [Baddass police officer]
    — Baddass Bureau of Investigation

    Which to me definitely looks like a response and not not-a-reply and also makes clear they didn't get, much less review, any evidence (which they didn't, I sent a short letter asking for advice), and they would only do so after I file a criminal complaint, which is indeed the law (and you cannot report crime directly to them as a normal citizen, only to local police, which I then do).

    And to be clear, "money laundering" was in the subject of my email "Request for advice on irregular business patterns - money laundering always one explanation".

    I then did consult with attorneys, although I didn't see why I should pay for the analysis of actual money laundering nor what usefulness that even has, what matters is evidence and whoever is in charge of money laundering in police should have it and decide what to do, if anything, and maybe it's evidence that's useful in 10 years because same stupid people keep doing the same stupid shit.

    Anyways, every attorney I talked to agreed the evidence I had was reasonable suspicion of money laundering, that the specific crimes carried out to coverup the money laundering was in any case clear crime ... but recommended not to report it to police. I'm like "what, why shouldn't we report money laundering to police?" most would then not answer just say they couldn't help me. One told me that what would happen is the police will never investigate the money laundering and I'd be put under investigation instead, even without evidence, and the police would try to put me in jail, but in any case destroy my career. One attorney told me that even if it was them in my situation with the same evidence, that that they agreed was unambiguous crime, that even then, reporting this sort of thing as an attorney, the police would not even investigate (and put them under investigation instead and try to destroy her career, just from being under investigation for crime as an attorney, isn't a good look). One attorney just flat out told me that they did not trust police to investigate this sort of crime.

    Now this was truly incredible to me as in nearly 2 decades of managing organisations, dealing with institutions, dealing with lawyers and attorney's and auditors (both acting for and against my interest), and all sorts of legal issues, law this, clause that, regulation such-and-such, proper procedures, cross those t's and dot those not i's, definitely pay the taxes, not a single time did any legal professional ever present the idea or give the impression that the law, at the end of the day, simply does not matter at all, and to not report crime to police (which there is no risk, at least in the law, of doing when it comes to money laundering, as the threshold of evidence is incredibly low, "irregular business pattern" suffices; and, in other situations, it was super important to report crime as a board director as then you can't be liable for covering it up, or from lost funds due to the crime that even if the money won't be recovered, if you say the invoice was fraudulent and paid by accident then it's important to report that for your own liability and for auditing reasons etc.), so this was entirely new legal concepts suddenly coming from this class of individual, that it's now important not to report crime because police will commit crimes against you if you do that.

    Naturally, I had to see this for myself.
  • javi2541997
    5.9k
    but my reading is that the statements in the middle are clearly written, at least in English, to heavily imply it is the author making the statement, and not the author reporting what I'm reporting.boethius

    I am not a native speaker, but at least I understood the same and I guess I am following your point. The fact that a specific police department is conspiring against you.

    On the other hand, I can't understand why you want to use English in your procedure, or I am not seeing your strategy clearly. Yes, I read in one of your paragraphs that you use this language because it avoids ambiguity but it seems that it has ended up in the opposite. In addition, it is not clear to me if you are (or not) from a non-English speaker country. I am lost at this point: I mean, why you had started this procedure in English?

    On the main point of the issue: reporting crimes such as corruption or money laundering is a very serious issue. Keep in mind that in these crimes will be involved police departments, politicians, judges, prosecutors, etc... It is like opening up the Pandora box. Prepare yourself with the consequences, because all the dirty public workers will go against you.
    If I were you, I'd ask my lawyer for the possibility of getting protection because it seems (according to your OP) that they already know your name. Maybe a procedure similar to the Witness Security Program. Even your attorney has expressed not to reporting those crimes because of the dirty cops... I can only say: be careful, your life could be in danger. It is true that we all should report crimes, but... when is against the "system", the situation is complicated.
  • boethius
    2.4k
    I am not a native speaker, but at least I understood the same and I guess I am following your point. The fact that a specific police department is conspiring against you.javi2541997

    Thanks for your input. As for a native speaker, the author isn't a native speaker either, so it's also useful to get the impression from similar English levels.

    On the other hand, I can't understand why you want to use English in your procedure, or I am not seeing your strategy clearly.javi2541997

    This is not my choice.

    It's absolutely incredible that this document is in English to begin with. I receive lot's of correspondence from the government about all sorts of things, it's always in the official language of the country (why wouldn't it be) and in some very limited cases there's an official translation that comes with or after the official documents. For instance, all the other internal documents I received in my requests for information are in the official language.

    It's also in the law that legal procedure is in the official language, as with every country this is an important legal detail of what language we're even talking law in.

    Also, considering I was not sent this document when the decision was made, but only a summary, it's not in English for my convenience (if that was even a valid reason) as I wasn't supposed to get this internal document. I had to phone half a dozen times making the argument that "summary" must be a summary of something more complete and I want that more complete document.

    They'd be like, "document, what document" and I'd be like "well, when I write a summary, which I do often as a corporate executive, it's usually a summary of a thing, if it was just the thing I wouldn't call it a summary ... I'd just call it 'the thing', so please go double check because I don't understand how the summary doesn't summarise something longer of which there's merit in writing a summary to begin with."

    Eventually they just sent me this document some months later.

    It's not only not for my convenience but would cause all sorts of problems if I did get this document, the mere fact it it's English is of course reason to retract the decision (it makes no reference to official law, which is in the official language; I've gotten this lesson a dozen times over the years that arguments, statements, representations, in English of or about the law may not be accurate and cannot be official; the official translation into English of the law makes clear it's not itself officially the law etc.).

    I was honestly floored to get this document in English. Indeed, my request was I wanted the official complete decision and an official translation (I have a right to translations if it concerns crime).

    So, the only explanation I can find is that it's in English for the benefit of other prosecutors, that writing in the official language with reference to the official law wouldn't make sense to people legally trained in that language. And these are national prosecutors and I went through everything with a few other prosecutors before they made a case and then gave the decision to this prosecutor (probably because of their level of English).

    On the main point of the issue: reporting crimes such as corruption or money laundering is a very serious issue. Keep in mind that in these crimes will be involved police departments, politicians, judges, prosecutors, etc... It is like opening up the Pandora box. Prepare yourself with the consequences, because all the dirty public workers will go against you.javi2541997

    Yes, the point of my second comment was I was well aware of the consequences. Police told me to talk to attorneys and they all said the same thing, like literally 2 dozen of them.

    However, if my evidence wasn't absolutely clear and all recorded in email and recorded phone conversations (which I have a right to do in my jurisdiction) then definitely there'd be no point, totally agreed.

    But, on the rare occasions you're simply delivered the evidence (for years I suspected the deals of this other board member was money laundering, but of course did nothing as I had no evidence, and I guess he got overconfident and so one day he just sent me the evidence), then everything with the police I recorded, it's a surprise and not something I looked for, but I feel a deep responsibility to go the distance.

    Of course, I'd rather not be murdered, and if this is simply what this statement says police are planning to do, then additional opinion that's what it appears to say is really useful. Likewise, if people have a different impression, then maybe there is less cause for alarm. The false statement about the evidence the Financial Intelligence Unit has is already pretty bad ... just not as bad as being murdered.
  • boethius
    2.4k
    For people's curiosity, the summary was a one page document with a bunch of boiler plate and simply stated:

    "No concrete grounds have been presented in the case to support the allegations made by [Boethius] in his writings. There is no reason to suspect an offence in the case. No pre-trial investigation will be initiated."

    However, this is only a statement about a very narrow jurisdiction over police, not the underlying money laundering.

    So why it's so important to state that I already sent all the evidence to the Financial Intelligence Unit (in internal prosecutor documents I'm not intended to see but other prosecutors may review) and did not get a reply (implying the evidence was not actionable enough to even reply to me), as that would explain no record of ever transferring the evidence that is not in their jurisdiction to the proper jurisdiction and also heavily implies there is no evidence and it's all just my "perception" (the word this prosecutor used elsewhere in the document); as obviously, if there is evidence of money laundering, police don't investigate, then I claim police are covering it up, assaulted me etc. it's bad optics at best if it turns out to be money laundering all along, makes my accusations against police more credible if my accusations of the underlying money laundering are also supportable (so, therefore, if other prosecutors, for example who also got all my evidence to start, may wonder what the Financial Intelligence Unit would say about all the evidence of money laundering, certainly would ease their minds to know the Financial Intelligence Unit as the same information and has not acted).

    So, it's a really important phrase that accomplishes 2 important legal things to claim I already sent the evidence to the Financial Intelligence Unit and they did not even reply (implies there is so little merit the experts on money laundering don't even reply).

    So, a really brazen levels of fraud ... that can be proven to be a false statement in a criminal process with simply producing the response from the Financial Intelligence Unit.

    Of course ... I'd need to be alive to do be able to do that (presumably, it is philosophy forum after all, so we should keep an open mind, but still, I think the point can be defended).
  • unenlightened
    9.2k
    I'm a native speaker, not a lawyer, but somewhat familiar with formal language.

    [Boethius] has justified cause to believe that the police is planning to murder him due to the reports he has filed. — prosecutors in my country

    This is ungrammatical; it should be "police are planning". That strongly suggests that this was not written by a native speaker, or at least not an educated one.


    In several emails sent to different recipients, [Boethius] has stated that the police have committed a number of different offences. [Boethius] has stated that he has reported the offences he suspects, including but not limited to money laundering, aggravated fraud, aggravated extortion and a variety of offences involving business operations, to several parties. He has contacted the [baddassery] Bureau of Investigation's Financial Intelligence Unit last April, but did not receive any reply or enquiry regarding the evidence he presented. He has also reported the matters in person at the [baddass] police station, the [baddassery] Bureau of Investigation, the [badder ass] police station and the [baddest of all asses] police station. He was ejected from the [badder ass] police station. In addition to the police failing to investigate the matters he has reported, [Boethius] has justified cause to believe that the police is planning to murder him due to the reports he has filed. The investigations against [Boethius] himself are groundless and caused by the reports he has lodged. The police, prosecutors and judges are covering up corruption and are thus involved in the offences, such as money laundering and corruption. In addition, [Boethius] suspects that police documents are being edited and/or deleted. In his emails, [Boethius] mentions by name [Beevus], [Butthead] and [Squeebo], among others.
    — prosecutors in my country

    The whole thing is badly written, the first two sentences both report what B has stated explicitly, firstly in emails, and secondly in an unspecified way, that might be verbal, or carved in tablets of stone, we don't know.

    the third sentence, beginning "He has contacted..." would normally be taken to be reporting what B has done, and not be a continuation of things B has stated. And certainly the implication of the phrase, "[Boethius] has justified cause to believe that the police is planning to murder him due to the reports he has filed." cannot in formal English be construed as being that B himself states that, but rather that the reporter is reporting it. But what reporter would report that with no detail on the justification or any supporting evidence?

    However, given that it is badly written by a non-native speaker, it has the general look of a report intended to entirely be of claims by B which were expected to be treated as fantastical. Hence - no further action. I'm wondering though why a dismissive report would be written in English at some trouble, and done so badly. Is it possible that your complaint had an international aspect and that this was a token arse-covering report to Interpol or someone?
  • boethius
    2.4k
    I'm a native speaker, not a lawyer, but somewhat familiar with formal language.unenlightened

    Really appreciated your analysis, thank you.

    Yes, it's badly written, which is another point I've made which is just "how do we even know what's meant?"

    Of course, the whole thing could be easily solved by prosecutors just issuing a clarification that "this means that", which they haven't done. I expect because then that creates further paper about this report that's made in English ... that's already a legal problem in itself.

    The author of this report stated in an email (asking me to rewrite everything as he didn't understand the mentioned emails) that "English isn't my working language" (which I don't see how rewriting things in English is going to solve).

    But yes, certainly we can interpret things as just badly written hodgepodge of claims we are dismissing.

    Which is what I expected, what the summary says which is purely dismissive, no explanation, nothing to see here.

    But it just bothered me that it was called a summary, that's really unusual in this sort of paper work, it's usually "decision this or that".

    And this has been my main point, that this paragraph, at minimum, should be clarified what the author claims the meaning to be. But authorities can't even do that: send me a short message that this sentence does not mean what you say it means.

    My guess is that since I never made this claim (only that I feared police), if they clarify they are saying I've made this claim they know my response will be the whole entire letter I wrote clarifying I am definitely not claiming I know police to intending or planning to murder me, but it is a reasonable fear in this kind of situation after the police assaulted me (how do I know they would draw the line at assault).

    Is it possible that your complaint had an international aspect and that this was a token arse-covering report to Interpol or someone?unenlightened

    This is a really good point. I didn't think about that, but would be a good explanation.

    The person who I'm told is behind the deal (and told this to the prosecutor -- the name that was so alarming and I went to police originally for protection from) has a red notice from Interpol, as we speak, for money laundering.

    One reason I've pressed forward in this, I'm not accusing anyone of laundering money who isn't already accused by Interpol of laundering money. And these engineering projects are literally for diamond mines in Africa, in the countries at the very top of the risk of money laundering list, and I have all the paperwork about them, so I'm pretty far from making any fantastical claims at the end of the day. It's not like I'm accusing the Norwegian Sovereign wealth fund of some crazy corporate scheme, I'm accusing someone already accused of laundering billions of dollars, a colonel (some reason you need a colonel to do engineering in Africa), and then a bunch of middlemen that arranged the papers, licences and engineering documents (that apparently I'm supervising).

    The other reason is they send me all the paperwork of these deals, which I can for sure tell you is money laundering as they put me down as senior manager (in charge of an engineering project budgeted at over a couple hundred million dollars). So, I'm pretty sure the senior manager of a money laundering operation can clarify if it's about laundering money or not. And, if I might be murdered / disappeared as a loose end anyways, I'd rather people have a chance to know why.
  • javi2541997
    5.9k
    This is not my choice.

    It's absolutely incredible that this document is in English to begin with.
    boethius

    It is a bad praxis of public administration, indeed. Every public worker must act and communicate in the official languages of the country they are working in. This is why I thought you were the one asking for this procedure in English at first glance. It is very strange. I don't know the law of your country because I don't know where you are from, but in my country (Spain) it is illegal to make official requirements or communications in a language that the interlocutor cannot understand.
    It is true that you have English skills, BUT I personally think that the prosecutor acted with bad faith or at least with bad praxis. Can you ask your lawyer ask or inquire something related to this issue?

    So, the only explanation I can find is that it's in English for the benefit of other prosecutors, that writing in the official language with reference to the official law wouldn't make sense to people legally trained in that languageboethius

    Does the law of your country allow this kind of procedure?
  • boethius
    2.4k
    It is very strange. I don't know the law of your country because I don't know where you are from, but in my country (Spain) it is illegal to make official requirements or communications in a language that the interlocutor cannot understand.javi2541997

    Yes it is very strange. explanation is a good one, but even then the original decision should be in the official language and then there would be a translation for Interpol. Certainly they can just email each other in English and maybe some reporting mechanisms specific to Interpol that would be in English, but since neither is the case here it's just sloppy work (and certainly they don't expect me to get this document anyways; so, corruption breeds in darkness).

    But yes, law is likely exactly the same as in Spain, that decisions and procedures (anything "official") are in the official language and that in some cases you can have thing translated (for instance anything to do with crime) and in other cases you'd have to pay your own translations. Some bureaucracies have service in English and in some narrow areas you need to talk through an interpreter (when there's potential legal consequences of the conversation, bureaucrats will speak through an interpreter so that they are certain they are following the law).

    It is true that you have English skills, BUT I personally think that the prosecutor acted with bad faith or at least with bad praxis. Can you ask your lawyer ask or inquire something related to this issue?javi2541997

    I have asked attorney's and lawyers; they just say it's of course strange and unusual. There's not really any doubt about what the language act says, and I've also recorded law enforcement also clarifying this on multiple occasions, and they like giving their speech that of course we're in this country and decisions are in the official language, establish language dominance.

    Does the law of your country allow this kind of procedure?javi2541997

    No, it's really clear that all legal procedure is in the official language in the language act, then a whole bunch of paragraphs of who non-native speaker has right to translations and interpretation in what context etc.

    The reason that legal procedure must be in the official language is that the only law that exists here is in the official language, and attorney's have on multiple occassions explained to me the subtle differences between the official English translation (that even comes with the preamble that it's not official for purposes of law) and the actual law, in connotation, scope, and in some cases seems just bad word choice on the part of the translators. Mostly reading the English translations is pretty accurate, but because there are differences, all legal decisions and procedures must be in the official language.

    As is the case in every country (there's an official law, in an official set of languages, and the law is practiced in that official language). It's as strange this decision is in English as it would be if it was in Swahili or Chinese, as far as the law is concerned.

    It will be quite incredible when a judge needs to order the translation of the above document, written by the National Prosecutors of the same country, for the document to be submissable as evidence in court.

    And I'm also in an EU country, and all these language laws are pretty standard as they also relate to European citizen rights in other EU countries, so probably pretty much the same as in Spain.
  • boethius
    2.4k
    If you ask ChatGPT this question it responds:

    "The statement says that Boethius has "justified cause to believe" that the police are planning to murder him due to the reports he has filed. This suggests that he has some evidence or reasoning to support his belief, rather than it being a mere speculation or assumption."

    Further enquiry leads to the conclusion:

    "You raise a valid point. It is possible that the prosecutor who wrote the statement did verify that Boethius contacted the National Bureau of Investigation's Financial Intelligence Unit and did not receive a reply or enquiry. The prosecutor may have based the statement on Boethius claims as well as any available records or evidence that support the claim.

    However, it is also possible that the prosecutor did not independently verify the information and simply included it based on Boethius' claims. In any case, it is important for authorities to conduct a thorough investigation and verify all relevant information and claims to ensure the accuracy and completeness of the information."

    Which sounds reasonable enough, definitely whatever the truth of these statements is, should be verified.

    Interestingly, ChatGPT does understand the implications of contradictory evidence:

    Would not the existence of a response make the statement in this report that there was no response false?

    ChatGPT: Yes, if it is true that Boethius received a response from the Financial Intelligence Unit, it would make the statement in the report that he "did not receive any reply or enquiry" false or inaccurate.

    If there is evidence that the Financial Intelligence Unit did respond to Boethius email, it would be important to clarify this discrepancy in the report and determine why the incorrect information was initially presented. It could be an honest mistake or a deliberate misrepresentation, and it would be important to understand the context and implications of the error.

    However, the fact that Boethius received a response from the Financial Intelligence Unit does not necessarily prove or disprove the validity of his claims or the existence of any wrongdoing. The prosecutor would still need to conduct an independent investigation and evaluate the evidence presented to determine the facts of the matter.

    Prompt: What good faith and bad motivations could there be to make this false statement?

    ChatGPT: There could be several reasons why someone might make a false statement, knowingly or unknowingly. Some possible good faith and bad motivations that could lead to the false statement in this report are:

    Good faith motivations:

    1. Lack of knowledge or information: The person who made the statement may not have had access to all the relevant information and may have assumed that no response was received from the Financial Intelligence Unit.
    2. Miscommunication: The person who made the statement may have received incorrect information from a source and believed it to be true.
    3. Memory lapse: The person who made the statement may have genuinely forgotten about the response from the Financial Intelligence Unit.

    Bad motivations:

    1. Cover-up: The person who made the statement may have deliberately concealed the fact that a response was received from the Financial Intelligence Unit to cover up any potential wrongdoing.
    2. Misdirection: The person who made the statement may have intentionally created a false narrative to mislead the prosecutor and prevent them from pursuing an investigation.
    3. Malice: The person who made the statement may have acted out of malice towards Boethius, and deliberately provided false information to harm his credibility.

    It is important to note that without additional information, it is difficult to determine the motivations behind the false statement. The prosecutor may need to investigate the matter further to uncover any potential wrongdoing or misrepresentations.
    — ChatGPT conversation
  • unenlightened
    9.2k
    Yes, it's badly written, which is another point I've made which is just "how do we even know what's meant?"boethius

    What is shocking is the lack of clarity about what are undisputed facts and what are your claims and what are 'their' claims/interpretations. This is so basic and important in matters legal, that the report is actually useless and uninformative. I don't think the quality is good enough for it to be a big conspiracy; it looks more like like some half-educated rookie saddled with making a report to close the 'case', that was never really opened, and no one was ever going to look at.
  • boethius
    2.4k
    What is shocking is the lack of clarity about what are undisputed facts and what are your claims and what are 'their' claims/interpretations. This is so basic and important in matters legal, that the report is actually useless and uninformative. I don't think the quality is good enough for it to be a big conspiracy; it looks more like like some half-educated rookie saddled with making a report to close the 'case', that was never really opened, and no one was ever going to look at.unenlightened

    Oh totally, it was totally shocking to me receiving this document, totally floored.

    It's actually difficult to imagine a prosecutor sitting down and writing a sentence with the word "murder" in it and not then reviewing that it means exactly what he intends to mean and there is no room for this sort of conversation. Especially if your goal is to avoid there being an investigation, the word "murder" is easily a land mine that can be counter productive to that goal.

    I'm careful about what I say in completely banal emails about the most trivial stuff as a board member of small companies ... so the idea a prosecutor would not write carefully about murder is truly incredible.

    Now, indeed, does seems like "some half-educated rookie saddled with making a report to close the 'case'" so what makes this document even stranger is that it's written by the third or fourth senior prosecutor in the entire country, the special prosecutor directly under the deputy prosecutor, under the prosecutor general, equal, or then just below, the senior prosecutor that runs the national prosecution authority. I also went through the whole thing with other national prosecutors, who initially told me the investigation had already started (as the evidence is overwhelming; especially that the initial statement of police to not investigate, that I made a mere accusation, cannot possibly be true, a "mere accusation" is exactly that, just making an accusation without any evidence at all (not even testimony: just accusing someone, no further details, which is indeed insufficient to start an investigation); so seeing tons of evidence, hundreds of attachments, recordings etc. they were completely panicked).

    As for conspiracy, does seem I'm alleging that, but I actually went to some lengths as to explain the motivations of police to claim I'm making a mere accusation without any evidence at all makes zero sense, especially as it's not even their jurisdiction and all they have to do is forward the evidence to the Financial Intelligence Unit.

    This is what puzzled me about attorney's telling me exactly this would happen (certainly they've seen this before, and it's just "the way of police" basically), but I really had a hard time imaging why.

    None of the people I'm accusing of laundering money even live in my country, so all local police needed to do is forward the evidence to the Financial Intelligence Unit who would forward it to Interpol. It's a lot more effort to (as you point out) to write hasty analysis that can be easily proven false. Now, if that happened (evidence forwarded along) and nothing came of it, which seems likely, then there wouldn't be any issue, certainly no way to allege a coverup. The evidence is "somewhere" and I'd go about my business, maybe ten years from now some detective is interested in the story as the same names come up with similar allegations; that was honestly my expectation.

    The police also make there initial decision that I'm making "mere accusations" without even phoning me. Which honestly just seems dangerous, as even if you wanted to coverup the crime ... you'd be even more motivated to understand what evidence exists in order to craft your narrative.

    Of course, they could have easily just stone walled on "no investigation, police discretion, we'll give no reasons" but the problem that arises is that they put me under investigation instead, so now the investigation is started which should be unbiased and consider equally my evidence against the people accusing me. This is what causes the whole catastrophe with police, as it's simply bad optics already on the surface that someone reports money laundering and then the person involved in that reports them for a crime and police start an investigation into the whistle blower (classic retaliation that's supposed to be illegal).

    From what I can tell, police just do these big favours for the attorney's of the people accused of money laundering (I was put under investigation, told I'm going to jail, for what no one can say, but told all claims would be dropped if I signed the severance package, took the money, a cool million Euros ... though, to be clear, not real money, but a promise to find it later ... maybe, but a 20 000 Euro down payment to ease my suffering).

    But why do these favours? Get these reports, hear a story from the counter-party attorney's, not even bother to phone me to followup on the crimes I filed and then put me under investigation ... but also not even phone me about that either.

    I very much doubt police got any benefit, it just seems that's what police do about money laundering.

    But what's clear is that once the coverup starts, it's a strong commitment of the whole system, then it just snowballs until you get the above kinds of paragraphs making false statement about what evidence the Financial Intelligence Unit has and what they have said, or not said, which is aggravated fraud to misrepresent an authority's statements, and particularly aggravated if we're talking about a police unit that investigates organised crime.

    What I can say in this experience, is that criminals are really stupid and not at all the cunning planners we see in movies and series ... which kind of makes sense when you think about it, as if you're smart (which I expect all participants of the forum to be) and you sit down and weigh the costs and benefits of being involved in organised crime, it's really hard to say it's worth committing crime to risk being murdered and also need to worry about police catching you for decades. Smart people do legitimate business.

    Rather, the reality seems to be that criminals are really dumb, but society organised to finance organised crime (through prohibition), and police are woefully under staffed to catch these dumb criminals most of the time, so they have the habit of just dismissing cases. Now, normally that's fine as as most cases you don't find the key evidence if there's no investigation. What's unusual about my case is that I'm sent the paperwork, then blackmailed (accused of signing illegitimate loans) ... in an email.

    Absolutely stupid. If you're going to extort someone, have the decency to do it over the phone so there's no need to report it to police.
  • boethius
    2.4k


    What may also surprise you even more is that this goes on for 7 pages of dense type ... with some paragraphs underlined and in bright red, which definitely indicates to me the work wasn't even finished (which in some ways supports your observation of a half-educated rookie but I think a rookie would be particularly concerned about the formatting and not leaving red editing markings on the document).

    It's mostly just rambling about points of law (in English, so not that useful in a jurisdiction where English isn't an official language) without even tying these observations about the law to the case, including some that seems to contradict the main claim that I have no evidence at all, just perception:

    There is therefore no requirement of certainty or a high probability of an offence having been committed. When considering whether to initiate a criminal investigation, it should be borne in mind that the purpose of a criminal investigation is precisely to investigate an offence instead of settling any other legal disputes. A mere allegation of an offence does not exceed the threshold required to initiate a criminal investigation. Appropriate concrete grounds for the decision to initiate a criminal investigation must be presented. In borderline cases, the interest of solving a crime is relevant, and it is more important in the case of serious offences — National Special Prosecutor

    So suddenly borderline and not a "high probability" just a "good probability" of serious crime?

    Is he claiming this case is borderline ... or just casually observing that this would be true if the case was borderline (i.e. a bunch of evidence existed), but we actually know it's not borderline at all and Boethius is a raving lunatic imagining things.

    Which definitely seems odd to bring up the borderline concept if you're main conclusion is:

    Boethius has not presented any concrete, objectively observable evidence to support his claims. A mere allegation of an offence or a person's own perception of a criminal incident does not cross the threshold for a criminal investigation. — National Special Prosecutor

    Seems pretty strong words to me, nothing borderline about it.

    Also, why would it take 7 pages to explain there is absolutely nothing to see here.
  • unenlightened
    9.2k
    None of the people I'm accusing of laundering money even live in my country, so all local police needed to do is forward the evidence to the Financial Intelligence Unit who would forward it to Interpol. It's a lot more effort to (as you point out) to write hasty analysis that can be easily proven false.boethius

    Now it comes a bit more clear to me. It's nobody's business to care a damn, and you are making work for them that they will get no credit for. So they set the village idiot to write a report that looks like a whole load of wild accusations with zero evidence, and there we are, Boethius is paranoid, case closed, time for a long lunch.
    There's not even enough sense to prove false, and if the worst happens, the village idiot gets a reprimand. It's a very familiar scenario, that Mrs un and I have been through a few versions of. Whistleblowers tend to be accused of something to shut them up. Nobody wants to investigate middle class and upper class crime, it's too close to home.
  • boethius
    2.4k


    What you describe is definitely the recipe, just to me seemed like more work, and higher risk, to coverup crime that happened in another country anyways. But I guess they'd still have to talk to me and that would be work.

    Whistleblowers tend to be accused of something to shut them up. Nobody wants to investigate middle class and upper class crime,unenlightened

    Here's how ChatGPT summarises the accusations against me contained in a single email:

    Based on the context you provided, there are several potential crimes that could be involved:

    Embezzlement: If the accusations of the CEO issuing loans without the authority to do so are true, then it could be considered embezzlement.

    Fraud: If the CEO deliberately misled investors about the company's financial situation or the legitimacy of the loans, then it could be considered fraud.

    False representation: If the CEO is falsely representing themselves as the legitimate CEO of the company and issuing loans without proper authority, then it could be considered false representation.

    Shareholder oppression: If the CEO is using their position to gain personal advantage at the expense of other shareholders, it could be considered shareholder oppression.

    Breach of fiduciary duty: If the CEO is not acting in the best interests of the company and its shareholders, then it could be considered a breach of their fiduciary duty.

    It is important to note that without more information and investigation, it is not possible to determine definitively if any of these crimes have been committed.
    — ChatGPT

    Email literally contains the statement:

    All other options will reveal serious accusations with the risk to damage the reputation and valuation of the company. — Absolute Madlad, member of the board of directors

    Which is basically copy and pasting the definition of blackmail from the dictionary into your email and pressing send.

    If the accusations aren't true ... it's just really, really dumb blackmail.

    But, kids, if you want to extort someone, do it over the phone. Simple, clean, and if it doesn't work you can just deny the whole conversation ever happened or not "what you meant, what you actually said was this different thing" ... you happened to have come up with after discussion with your lawyer.

    I guess this guy thought I would go along with it and wanted to entrap me in an actual crime of the coverup (covering up the allegations of wrongdoing is still a crime even if the wrongdoing being alleged turns out to be false) and hiding things from investors and auditors, so that I'm still committing serious fraud even if I realise later the original accusations aren't true.

    Bold, but stupid.

    Of course, my response the next day was:

    If what you say is true a serious crime has been committed that I have, as an “illegitimate CEO”, been fraudulently representing the company these past years and everything I have signed is invalid.

    If what you say is true, a second serious crime has been committed in that you are soliciting me to engage in a conspiracy with the other board members to cover up this crime, under the threat of blackmail of a poor performance review as well as the reward of a recompense of the CTO position.

    There is no other interpretation of your letter I am able to arrive at.
    — Boethius, CEO
  • boethius
    2.4k
    For people curious about the use of ChatGPT in legal analysis, definitely has limits, but also has it's uses.

    For example, with the simple prompt: "What crimes are committed or alleged in the following email:"

    And the c/p (one single) email I receive, ChatGPT produces:


    Based on the content of the email, it appears that the following crimes or alleged crimes may have been committed:

    1. Fraudulent representation or misrepresentation - The sender alleges that the recipient, B, is not the legitimate CEO of the company and does not have the authority to represent himself as such. This could potentially constitute fraudulent representation or misrepresentation.

    2. Breach of fiduciary duty - The sender accuses B of acting against the interests of the shareholders by issuing loans without proper authority and compromising the voting process for his own benefit. This could potentially be a breach of fiduciary duty, which is a legal obligation to act in the best interests of others, such as shareholders.

    3. Embezzlement - The loans issued by B, which the sender alleges were not valid, could potentially constitute embezzlement, which is the illegal appropriation of money or property that belongs to someone else.

    4. Forgery or falsification of documents - If B did in fact issue loans without proper authority, he may have forged or falsified documents to do so.

    5. Conspiracy or collusion - The sender suggests that B may have been trying to compromise the voting process to keep his position on the board, which could potentially constitute a conspiracy or collusion to manipulate the outcome of a vote.

    It is important to note that these are only potential crimes or allegations based on the content of the email, and any actual criminal liability would need to be determined by a court of law based on the evidence presented.
    — ChatGPT


    Whereas, as a null case, I asked the same thing, "What crimes are committed or alleged in the following email:", and c/p'd Moby Dick's chapter "The Advocate" (hoping that's a challenge) and ChatGPT simply responds:

    There are no crimes committed or alleged in this email. The email is an excerpt from the novel "Moby-Dick" by Herman Melville and is a defense of the whaling industry against the perception that it is an unpoetic and disreputable pursuit. The author argues that whaling is an honorable profession that has contributed significantly to global exploration and trade, and that whalemen are deserving of respect and admiration. — ChatGPT

    Of course, maybe that's easy as it's public information (but still, good on ChatGPT to know that).

    So, same experiment with a pretty random chosen business email of similar length, just to make things harder it is an email that discusses legal concepts:

    Based on the content of the email, it appears that there are no crimes committed or alleged. However, there may be potential violations of contractual agreements and breach of confidentiality if any confidential information is used outside the scope of written agreements. The email discusses the need for a formal written agreement to move negotiations forward and to avoid presenting undefined or loosely defined collaborations to investors. Additionally, the email suggests that a more detailed engineering study is required to ensure the success of the projects mentioned. — "ChatGPT

    So, pretty good. Definitely based on these experiments you "need something" to get ChatGPT to start listing crimes such as fraud, embezzlement, conspiracy, etc.

    You can of course lead ChatGPT on (i.e. instruct it to make the argument a crime has been committed), but if that's not your goal, you can make very simple neutral prompts (which on null experiments does not produce a positive result). Likewise, you can ask ChatGPT to make arguments for and against a given crime it identifies as potential, as well as instruct it to make cases for and against, by the sender or receiver of the email etc. and keep things balanced.

    Answers are pretty sensible.

    However, what ChatGPT doesn't do is get into any jurisdictional analysis, it does not even ask what jurisdiction the email is sent and received, nor build any nuanced theory of potential motivations. It will just state that the email is perhaps coercive to control an outcome.

    Conclusion, ChatGPT is not a very good lawyer and can't really build a case. It does spit out key words and basic arguments that you'd start a legal analysis with, and also that it comes to similar interpretations does perhaps lend "impartial" weight that those interpretations are at least credible to consider, but not with any nuances.
bold
italic
underline
strike
code
quote
ulist
image
url
mention
reveal
youtube
tweet
Add a Comment

Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.