I think philosophy and social studies have played a substantial role in this by attacking the notion of truth.

They make ludicrous exaggerated claims about things that we can actually be very certain of to imply an unjustified level of skepticism that is inappropriately applied. Which has made ripe ground for denial of biological reality.

I cannot invalidate the youtube examples Andrew cites, they in fact exist, but they are outliers, and do not significantly challenge trans issues. — universeness

Is it not significant though? Granted, for the general population, the number of cases would have to be very large to be statistically significant. But how big is the trans population really? I'm talking about the true population, not just supporters. Like, if you are 'two-spirit' because you like to sleep with both men and women...ok, you are bi. Basically, you sleep with your own sex, the opposite sex, both sexes, or neither. Those are the choices. So if you are living your daily life dressed as the opposite sex, or you have had or are in the process of having a sex-change then, yes, you are part of the demographic in question. In the U.S, that's about 0.4 percent of the population. But 25% of those are 'gender non-conforming', so maybe those are 'outliers' who are just piggy-backing on the trans-identity. So say 0.25% of the population. Maybe for two out of every thousand people we owe awareness, but maybe not so much accommodation. Lots and lots of minority groups with much higher representation that that might by able to raise strong claims for accommodations, given a sympathetic public forum.

Detransitioners prove that you can be wrong about your gender identity. There are no reliable studies in transition regret.

The harm of being wrong is irreversible damage to yourself. It is not the equivalent of regretting having a tattoo (which can cause some distress)

People say speak to trans people. Well I have spoken to four and am gay and on the autism spectrum which are both relevant to this and grew up in a religious cult like environment which makes me aware of the cult like aspects to this movement.

People would not be opposing this if it was really harmless. J K Rowling is a left wing humanitarian. She didn't just turn into a Nazi overnight she is protecting women's identity, integrity and spaces and has received copious death threats, rape threats and general twitter hate.

I don't accept your 'irreversible genital mutilation' categorisation, unless you are referring to such as the circumcision of children without their consent or forced female genital mutilation, as practised by some fanatical groups. Trans operations are by consent, but yes, some people have expressed regret at some point afterwards, in the same way some people have expressed regret in getting a boob job or an irreversible face lift.
Trans folks would explain to you about all of the checks and processes involved in becoming trans. It is a very slow, very careful process and 'reversible' is maintained for as long as is medically and psychologically possible.

I have not seen a proliferation of other groups talking about similar regrets. — Andrew4Handel

Yeah, almost every atheist now debating theists on-line, are ex-theists.

Woman face is black face. Transgender is the same principle as transracialism and trans ablism. Appropriating someone else's protected characteristics. No man should be given access to women's spaces and awards due distress with their birth sex. That is misogyny and gaslighting women. Other peoples identity and privacy should not be given away due to someone else's mental health. That does not happen in any other area of life. — Andrew4Handel

I could respond to you sentence by sentence Andrew but I honestly suggest you communicate with real online trans folks, or at least watch some of their call-in shows. People call in all the time, who hold your opinions and some who dissent even more so that you do. The on-line trans folks are far better positioned to answer your points compared to a het, cis male such as me.
I have watched about 5 episodes of the transatlantic call-in show, over the past year or so.

I think there is a much bigger, underlying issue that trans issue's feed into.
Is it your business what consenting adults choose to engage in sexually?
Should your sexual preferences affect you legal rights?
Should your sexual biology affect your legal rights?

A lot of people in religions grew up in it and had no choice. Circumcision I would happily outlaw but it does not make you infertile or do major damage to your reproductive system and hormonal balance.

I was personally harmed by religion and I do oppose it to some extent and especially childhood indoctrination.

Unless you join Isis or a religious cult or had religion forced on you like me I am not sure what irreversible harm, especially bodily harm could come from joining a religion temporarily. I went to a few other churches a few times after leaving my family church before fully desisting from Christianity and had not unpleasant experiences there.

However the two situations are different and the harm of religion in no way justifies the harm of gender ideology.

I think there is a much bigger, underlying issue that trans issue's feed into.
Is it your business what consenting adults choose to engage in sexually?
Should your sexual preferences affect you legal rights?
Should your sexual biology affect your legal rights? — universeness

It is not. Which is why it is equally not society's business to address such issues.
No your sexual preferences should not relate to your legal rights, which are universal human rights and general by nature, not specific.
No. Your sexual biology should affect your medical treatment. Which is why clarity around actual sexual biology is so important.

I am not sure what irreversible harm, especially bodily harm could come from joining a religion temporarily. — Andrew4Handel

I am sure you would agree that psychological harm is every bit as malevolent as physical harm.

However the two situations are different and the harm of religion in no way justifies the harm of gender ideology. — Andrew4Handel

I would not suggest one harm justifies another. Religion is an old friend of 'conservative norms' and religious dogma is constantly used to point to what many today consider deviant malalignment with what they consider the sanctum of binary sexuality. In some religious regimes today, you would be murdered due to being homosexual and I would be murdered as an apostate. Also under such regimes, neither of us would be given any kind of equal legal status, compared to those who comply with the strictly religious and strictly binary sexual model. It seems to me that trans folks are fighting for the same legal rights that gay folks have won for themselves in many countries today.

I don't think people should be able to participate in surgeon assisted genital mutilation. There was the German case of a cannibal victim who consented to be eaten by Armin Meiwes. Consent does not resolve ethical issues. Gender ideology involves other people in its perpetuation.

Women have not all consented to having biological men in their spaces, winning their awards and in their domestic violence shelters. They are having this imposed on them from above.
Parents have not consented to have their children indoctrinated in schools under the guise of teaching tolerance.

A woman in British hospital heard a male voice in the bed next to her and she was told there were no men on the ward. This is gaslighting. Now it has come out that ther have been 6500 sexual assaults reported by women in British hospitals including a stroke victim who died after being raped. No one should needlessly compromise other peoples safety because someone else's desired personal identity.

These are not the concerns of a moral panic or phobia. In one sense we could just let it run it full course til the number of victims becomes undeniable to prove our point but already detransitioners are spontaneously amassing with tragic stories.

It is not. Which is why it is equally not society's business to address such issues. — Pantagruel

Government must still legislate on the issue and people vote for government so there IS social responsibility in that sense.

No your sexual preferences should not relate to your legal rights, which are universal human rights and general by nature, not specific. — Pantagruel

:up:

No. Your sexual biology should affect your medical treatment. Which is why clarity around actual sexual biology is so important. — Pantagruel

It might affect the type of medical treatment but are you saying that your biological sex should affect your legal right to a particular medical treatment you want. Are you anti-abortion for example?

Your position on religion would make more sense if I was defending religion, promoting childhood indoctrination which I absolutely oppose and if I was not a victim of a religious cult myself.
Also religion is faith based it is not allowed to demand we all change our beliefs, behaviours and attitudes.(in most of the west). And I am quite happy to oppose it all.
Trans people are protected by the same laws and have the same human rights as everyone else. It is not gay rights part 2. It is undermining the rights and same sex protections of women and gay people. As a gay man I have to accept women who identify as gay men in my dating pool after escaping a religious cult and where people encouraged me to become heterosexual and engage in relationships with women. Gay people fought against conversion therapy are now being told they have a prejudicial genital preference and are sexual racists.

I don't think people should be able to participate in surgeon assisted genital mutilation. There was the German case of a cannibal victim who consented to be eaten by Armin Meiwes. Consent does not resolve ethical issues. Gender ideology involves other people in its perpetuation. — Andrew4Handel

Your outlier examples are getting more and more extreme Andrew.
I support full bodily autonomy but that does not mean I would accept that you can therefore offer yourself as food, especially as cannibalism causes the equivalent of mad cow disease in humans.

Women have not all consented to having biological men in their spaces, winning their awards and in their domestic violence shelters. They are having this imposed on them from above. — Andrew4Handel

I agree that this is a very difficult and complicated area. I personally think that a fully transitioned trans woman poses no threat to women in what we would consider traditional female spaces.
If you still have male genitalia then perhaps you would not be allowed in women only spaces. I know that some on-line trans folks don't share that opinion and hold a more nuanced view.

Now it has come out that ther have been 6500 sexual assaults reported by women in British hospitals including a stroke victim who died after being raped. — Andrew4Handel

I think all of these crimes are committed by deviant men who will role play any character to achieve their goal. I think this has nothing to do with trans issues at all.
If someone dresses as a doctor and claims to have the skills of a doctor and ends up killing someone whilst acting as a fake doctor, is that the fault of doctors?

It might affect the type of medical treatment but are you saying that your biological sex should affect your legal right to a particular medical treatment you want. Are you anti-abortion for example? — universeness

People have a right to maximum say in what affects them personally. It is where people start claiming the right to know what is best for someone else that is the problem. I pointedly said that your sexual biology should not affect your legal rights, but it is a very important factor in treatment. I work in the medical industry and doctors have related this concern to me.

Trans people are protected by the same laws and have the same human rights as everyone else. It is not gay rights part 2. It is undermining the rights and same sex protections of women and gay people. As a gay man I have to accept women who identify as gay men in my dating pool after escaping a religious cult and where people encouraged me to become heterosexual and engage in relationships with women. Gay people fought against conversion therapy are now being told they have a prejudicial genital preference and are sexual racists. — Andrew4Handel

I agree, it's not gay rights part 2, It's trans rights.
What do you mean by 'accept women who identify as gay men?' Is the imposition placed on you more than a person of the female sex, requesting you to refer to them with the pronoun he?
I have a good friend who's daughter has recently made such a request.
Is there further extremely difficult burdens being placed on you by such 'women,' that you have not made clear to me so far?
What have the pressures others have put on you, related to you becoming hetero got to do with a women who want to be referred to using a male pronoun? Are you saying these women are pressuring you to have sex with them, based on you being a gay man?
I am sure I am misunderstanding what you mean in your quote above, please clarify.

I am personally perpetually single. So I am not currently being in a situation where I could encounter a gay trans man.

But lesbian apps have been inundated by transbians and lesbians are having to meet up in secret.

But the issue is redefining what being gay means.

By allowing men to call themselves lesbians and women call themselves gay men you are undermining the nature of sexual identity and the meaning and lived experience of being gay.

It is where people start claiming the right to know what is best for someone else that is the problem. — Pantagruel

Is that not exactly what you are doing in the case of trans folk?

I wonder if the whole trans issue isn't just another rider on the entitlement bus. — Pantagruel

The more I have to waste my time thinking about it the more I'm moving from being a passive to an active opponent. — Pantagruel

Are the quotes above not based on YOUR claims about those who are currently involved in fighting for an improved legal status for trans folks. In Scotland, the government tried to make it much easier to change your legal sex status. Overturned by the so called 'British' government.
I am not familiar with the main sticking points but no-doubt there was something about a case where a person not fully transitioned, having the legal right to enter a female toilet or a criminal posing as trans, getting into a female prison rather that a male one. I don't know the word for word detail of the proposed Scottish law but most trans folks seemed to be happy with it.

So are these hetero men trying to have sex with lesbians or trans men trying to have sex with lesbians or a bit of both? How would you ever know for sure?
Do such attempts at manipulation of the situation support you negating all efforts made by genuine trans folks to gain the legal right to change their sex status IF they have fully transitioned or are pretty close to doing so.
You stated earlier that you had 'existential' concerns here, that warrant you making comments such as:

Personally I think anyone supporting gender ideology is now participating a crime against humanity. — Andrew4Handel

What is this existential threat that YOU personally face, when a person who was born a man, transitions into a woman and becomes legally recognised as such?

I do not see why men should be able to legally identify as women and access women spaces. I can't think of another case where we impose this kind of fiction. Or what the ethical arguments could be.

Why should gender dysphoria entitle you to someone elses identity? An identity already occupied by the reality of biological females. A vulnerable easily identifiable definable group whose wombs we all grew in.

The solution to dysphoria is apparently life long medication access to other peoples spaces coercing people to use your preferred pronouns and to pretend they don't know your birth sex (a charade). And the only medical health care that is performed based on the patients self diagnosis and threats of suicide. And on top of this trying to get it redefined as not a mental illness and the equivalent to being born gay. (Being gay which does not require any medication, genital surgeries cross sex hormones or coercing peoples language or attitudes or access to the opposite sexes private spaces).

It is all very unfortunate, distressing and dysfunctional and unsustainable.

I pointedly said that your sexual biology should not affect your legal rights, — Pantagruel

So was this a typo? Did you just miss out the word 'not' between 'should' and 'affect?'

Your sexual biology should affect your medical treatment. — Pantagruel

I don't see how you can separate legal rights and 'medical treatments,' the latter is surely governed by the former.

What is your biological reality or legal status imperative for such folks as hermaphrodites who internally produce male and female gametes (eggs and sperm)?

The existential threat is to the truth and the honest use of language. Making everyone lie about reality for a minority. Gas lighting us that if we see a man enter a womens toilet he is actually a woman so we no longer trust our senses and protective instincts. Calling men "woman of the year" and sports woman of the year after having a grossly unfair advantage over women.

Calling women cervix havers and pregnant people and black birthing bodies. Calling same sex attraction a genital preference. All of which have been done.

What classifies as affecting me personally? The Rwandan genocide didn't affect me personally, nor the war in Yemen, HIV, famine or rape. That is not the only basis for ethical concern but there are many threats from gender, to my use of language, my future employment, to my neices and nephews bodily integrity, the abusive use of the medical service in malpractice that has lead to the Gender affirming Tavistock Cliniv being closed down and being sued by up to a 1000 families. My identity as gay person is being tied to the tqia++ in a move I did not consent to and tying me to the indoctrination, sexually inappropriate conduct and ethics and medical malpractice as if I personally endorse.

It is not Straight+TQIA++ it is gay people and any dubious harmful political, ideological fetishistic movement that is free to attach itself to our biological sexual preference.

think philosophy and social studies have played a substantial role in this by attacking the notion of truth.

They make ludicrous exaggerated claims about things that we can actually be very certain of to imply an unjustified level of skepticism that is inappropriately applied. Which has made ripe ground for denial of biological reality. — Andrew4Handel

I know a trans man who was trans for a good decade before all the hype. She's a prominent surgeon, and surgeons are huge money makers for hospitals, so she has the leeway to do what she likes. Everyone gave her space to be what she wanted to be. It wasn't a problem.

The drama about acceptance of trans and non-binary is partly an internet phenomenon I think.

There are no true human hermaphrodites as far as I am aware. Disorders of sexual development only occur in males and females. Usually in one sex alone like Klinefelters that only affects males. These are not transgender conditions but are being used as a trojan horse eroding womes rights spaces and gay rights.

The existential threat is to the truth and the honest use of language. — Andrew4Handel

You mean YOUR truth and what YOU claim is honest use of language.

Gas lighting us that if we see a man enter a womens toilet he is actually a woman so we no longer trust our senses and protective instincts. — Andrew4Handel

How many biological parts must a man transitioning to a woman remove/replace before you will accept them as a woman. I assume that you know why men have nipples. We all start off female in the womb!

Calling men "woman of the year" and sports woman of the year after having a grossly unfair advantage over women. — Andrew4Handel

I have heard there may be a solution to this based on testosterone reduction treatments but I don't know the details

Calling women cervix havers and pregnant people and black birthing bodies. Calling same sex attraction a genital preference. All of which have been done. — Andrew4Handel

Who is using these terms that so offend you? Trans folks? Being trans does not prevent you from being a plonker at times.

What classifies as affecting me personally? — Andrew4Handel

YOU decide!

The Rwandan genocide didn't affect me personally, nor the war in Yemen, HIV, famine or rape. — Andrew4Handel

These did and do affect me personally as they affect me mentally.

but there are many threats from gender, to my use of language, my future employment, to my neices and nephews bodily integrity, — Andrew4Handel

Yes, there are threats involved, so its important to tread with care. What if one of your nieces or nephew's want's to transition their sex? Would that change your stance?

I don't see how you can separate legal rights and 'medical treatments,' the latter is surely governed by the former. — universeness

Medical treatments are determined by medical need, not legal rights. How you manage to draw this inference is a complete mystery to me.

It is where people start claiming the right to know what is best for someone else that is the problem.
— Pantagruel

Is that not exactly what you are doing in the case of trans folk? — universeness

Or is it the trans movement now seeking to impose standards on everyone else? I am just calling attention to the most fundamental underlying principle. Then it becomes a question of numbers. And the numbers just don't warrant the accommodations. Most of the world is okay with the functional constraints imposed by gender-duality. So maybe there needs to be at least one single-occupancy locking bathroom at every public facility. Whatever. There are 100 times as many smokers as trans folk, yet we don't provide special smoking rooms for them anymore, despite the fact that many of them "need" nicotine at regular intervals. Different people prioritize different aspects of their personal identity differently.

Based on the fact that, for any group, it is usually a radical-vocal minority that ends up speaking for the group, in this case if there are complaints, they are come from a minority of a very small minority. Which is to say they should be heard, evaluated, and treated in that exact context.

Ultimately, populations thrive in a society based upon their presence, not their publicity. If a group can be dispersed and maintain its identity, obviously it has strong foundations. If a group only represents one in a thousand people, then maybe there are lots of children who might never be aware of trans-identities. In fact, I suspect that a lot of trans people don't want to stand out, but rather to fit in, and not be noticed. So maybe we don't need to call extra attention to it. But of course, we do need to ensure that no other groups are preaching or practicing hate. That is the where public efforts should lie.

A quick google search produced, From Wiki:
True hermaphroditism represents 5% of all sex disorder differentiations.
The exact number of confirmed cases is uncertain, but by 1991 approximately 500 cases had been confirmed.
It has also been estimated that more than 525 have been documented.

If you have better sources, you should cite them, but confirming the scientific rigour involved can always be problematic for us amateurs. My field of speciality is Computing Science, not human biology and human gametes.

Medical treatments are determined by medical need, not legal rights. How you manage to draw this inference is a complete mystery to me. — Pantagruel

Only legal operations/medical processes are allowed. Only legal medications can be used.

So maybe there needs to be at least one single-occupancy locking bathroom at every public facility. — Pantagruel

Or every future public toilet can be built as a series of individual lockable units, with a WC and a small sink and mirror. No more gender specific toilets. Would that not solve the problem?

Ultimately, populations thrive in a society based upon their presence, not their publicity. — Pantagruel

I am a socialist/secular humanist, so accommodating the needs and wishes of as many people in a community as possible, remains the main goal.

There are no true human hermaphrodites as far as I am aware. — Andrew4Handel

There’s 46,XX/46,XY chimerism.

Gas lighting us that if we see a man enter a womens toilet he is actually a woman so we no longer trust our senses and protective instincts. — Andrew4Handel

What are you concerned about? Transgender women just wanting to use women’s bathrooms, or men pretending to be women as an excuse to use women’s bathrooms and sexually assault them?

Or are you suggesting that transgender women just are men pretending to be women as an excuse to use women’s bathrooms and sexually assault them?

And regarding “trusting our senses”, would you consider this person a man or a woman? Which bathroom should they use?

There is a limit to what I want to say about disorders of sexual development but no one is opposing these people as far as I can see anywhere.

They are not a justification for saying men can become women and vice versa. These people have a legitimate claim to resolve an identity issue based on biological reality. And most of them are identifiable as male and female and are males and females with disorders of development.

This is all a distraction from the issue of gay men having their testicles removed and penises mutilated then regretting it which really has happened and is happening. The increasing number of people regretting irreversible bodily damage due to identifying in as trans. These people are easy to find on You Tube prominent among them is Shapeshifter and Ritchie Herrin. Both gay men who experienced internalized homophobia and have no detransitionted. There are several more you can find including Chloe Cole child transitioner.

There is the closure of the closure of the Tavistock clinic in London that I mentioned. I have referred to a lot of stuff in other threads and could spend hours sharing links and discussing cases. The death of a teen who had been on puberty blockers in 2016 that has only just come to light and their are some terrible photos of what happened on line including other botched gender care surgeries. This has lead to a lot of European countries putting a halt on most gender treatments for minors.

I have mentioned elsewhere what happened to Jazz Jennings based on Jazzes documentary series (The most famous trans child). Jazzes penis was underdeveloped due to puberty blockers and Jazz had to have Jazzes scrotum expanded with water to create enough skin for a pseudo vagina. That was painful enough but then Jazz required at least 3 further surgeries to make the pseudo vagina. Jazz also developed severe depression coinciding with starting puberty blockers. This was all because Jazz liked wearing girls clothes as a 3 year old. He was identified as a candidate for lifelong medical interventions and castration which I find mind blowingly terrible.

Jazz's own trans identified surgeon Marci Bowers said that the surgery was problematic and that children who had these would be anorgasmic permanently. And most trans identified people did not transition as adults and won't experience this but advocate for this type of intervention.

Most intersex people I have heard advocate against "corrective" surgeries on their genitalia unless they choose them as adults.