We should only think critically when emotionally balanced and calm? — praxis

I said "ideally."

It seems to me that critical thinking would be particularly useful when we're upset and therefore may not be thinking clearly. Rationality alleviates irrationality, in other words. — praxis

In my experience, the calm comes first, then the rationality. Actually, that's not true. They come together.

Yes, but then much could also be done to build a sense of common purpose among our fellow citizens. — T Clark

Indeed. And those efforts will be opposed just as vigorously by the same powerful factions that block access of citizens to sound information and the exercise of clear thinking.
Hence my doubt regarding the achievability of either, though I approve the attempts at both.

As I noted, we can do something right now - treat people with respect. — T Clark

By all means, do so. I remain selective.

That is a different line of thinking than believing a god intended for us to be like angels, but Eve ate the wrong fruit and ruined everything. — Athena

Especially when an angel like lucifer can become gods enforcer and best reason to 'believe or else,' but still be called a 'fallen' angel. I assume you assign no blame to Eve for her actions in this fable, yes?

Why do you value the early Greek/Athenian system, that based it's workings on a pantheon of gods, with Zeus always having the power to veto any decision made by less powerful creature characters than him.
He would do stuff like appear as a shower of gold, to impregnate a mortal such as Danae.
Sounds to me like something a creep like Trump would do.

Zeus, turned to gold, piercing the brazen chamber of Danae, cut the knot of intact virginity. I think the meaning of the story is this, “Gold, the subduer of all things, gets the better of brazen walls and fetters; gold loosens all reins and opens every lock, gold makes the ladies with scornful eyes bend the knee. It was gold that bent the will of Danae. No need for a lover to pray to Aphrodite, if he brings money to offer.”

If Athenians based their thinking on horror stories such as this, then why do you value their general deliberations?

I said "ideally." — T Clark

Funny, because critical thinking could be handy in critical (fearful or otherwise emotional) situations and not just when sipping tea in a lounge chair or whatever.

Well, Zeus was a notorious serial rapist, while Jehovah just did it the once afawk... so, I guess progress has been made.

Without irony I say - I think it's simpler here in the US - the Republicans did it. — T Clark

:up: Mostly, yeah, especially since the 1980s.

And this is made possible by adopting the German model of bureaucracy. Before Hoover and Roosevelt worked together to give us Big Government, the US government was relatively weak. — Athena

To my mind, 'the administrative state' beginning in the 1930s had postponed for almost cenrury this US collapse we're currently living through. During the last 80-odd years, women and minorities have been substantively enfranchised, business cycles have been extended and flattened due to effective regulations the public-private synergy of which has produced both unprecedented national prosperity and fewer boom & bust crises than before the 1929 Crash, far more and effective social welfare policies have been enacted, etc etc. The problem was not, IMO, the "German model of bureaucracy" itself but rather the postwar (i.e. "Cold War military industrial complex") use of "the German model" to perpetuate the American (internally contradictory) model of political democracy and economic anti-democracy – a laissez-faire settlers' slave republic – that had been established by anti-monarchal plutocrats in 1789.

Are you saying it is not values that lead to shoddy construction, prolonged disrepair, and entropy?

Not at all. I'm suggesting that it's not the merely symptomatic 'degradation of values' in our lifetimes but instead it's the congenital defect of the decadent values of the Founding generation – patriarchal plutocratic slavers – of the late-18th century America who'd been the architects of 'this house' which have contributed more than any other factor to the current, status quo collapse (and populist reactions to it).

I remember the older people who all about honesty and human dignity.

Well, I'm not nearly as nostalgiac as you seem to be, Athena, for a past 'Golden Era' which history ubiquitously demonstrates never was and, I suspect as long as civilization is scarcity-driven, never will be.

:100:

By all means, do so. I remain selective. — Vera Mont

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity. — Cliche with literary pretentions

critical thinking could be handy in critical (fearful or otherwise emotional) situations — praxis

Your two uses of "critical" have different meanings. Critical situations require calm to address effectively. Tea is not required, though.

Critical situations require calm to address effectively. — T Clark

We evolved to get excited in critical situations. Stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline are released. Our blood pressure and heart rate increase. We start breathing faster. Even our blood flow changes.

I can see why you would disagree with me, but why would you be insulted by that? — T Clark

Let's see. The story of George Washington cutting down his father's cherry tree is one of several myths intended to teach children the relationship between good morals and being a good citizen, but saying the Social Security Act and old textbooks stress the importance of human dignity, is not a myth. I don't know how we can maintain a discussion that mixes myth with facts without agreement about what is a myth and what is a fact.

If you knew the educated people of my grandmother's generation, I don't think we would have a disagreement. I don't know how many years of life experience you have but I doubt if they are as many years as I have experienced.

If you were to watch old TV shows you might notice cultural differences between the 1950's and the present. The original Star Trek TV shows contrasted with the Next Generation Star Trek TV shows is an excellent example of what the change in education did to our culture. Captain Kirk is the John Wayne of outer space and Picard is the "Group Think" generation.

The problem of our time is that the ruling elite have turned mass manipulation into an artform that would have made even Goebbels proud. — Tzeentch

Indeed.

Just for the record, the art of mass manipulation was brought to modern form by Edward Bernays (November 22, 1891 − March 9, 1995) considered a pioneer in the field of public relations and propaganda, and referred to in his obituary as "the father of public relations". (Born in Austria the year Sigmund Freud published one of his earliest papers, Bernays was Freud's nephew twice over. His mother was Freud's sister Anna, and his father, Ely Bernays, was the brother of Freud's wife Martha.)

Walter Lippman was Bernays' unacknowledged American mentor and Lippman's work The Phantom Public greatly influenced the ideas expressed in Propaganda a year later.

We evolved to get excited in critical situations. Stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline are released. Our blood pressure and heart rate increase. We start breathing faster. Even our blood flow changes. — praxis

That is all true, unless a person intentionally trains himself to remain calm and reasonable. Most of our perceived threats today are not life-threatening, and being hijacked by our instinctive fight-or-flight reaction is not a good thing. Flipping into the fight or flight mode is much more a Western characteristic than an Eastern characteristic. Asians tend to remain calm. The difference begins with different child-rearing styles and different cultural influences.

Just for the record, the art of mass manipulation was brought to modern form by Edward Bernays (November 22, 1891 − March 9, 1995) considered a pioneer in the field of public relations and propaganda, and referred to in his obituary as "the father of public relations".

[ ... ]

Walter Lippman was Bernays' unacknowledged American mentor and Lippman's work The Phantom Public greatly influenced the ideas expressed in Propaganda a year later. — BC

:100: :fire:

If you were to watch old TV shows you might notice cultural differences between the 1950's and the present. The original Star Trek TV shows contrasted with the Next Generation Star Trek TV shows is an excellent example of what the change in education did to our culture. Captain Kirk is the John Wayne of outer space and Picard is the "Group Think" generation. — Athena

:clap: :sweat: As an original Trekkie myself, I can't argue with you there, Athena. LLAP (n o t MAGA :mask:)

Indeed.

Just for the record, the art of mass manipulation was brought to modern form by Edward Bernays (November 22, 1891 − March 9, 1995) considered a pioneer in the field of public relations and propaganda, and referred to in his obituary as "the father of public relations". (Born in Austria the year Sigmund Freud published one of his earliest papers, Bernays was Freud's nephew twice over. His mother was Freud's sister Anna, and his father, Ely Bernays, was the brother of Freud's wife Martha.)

Walter Lippman was Bernays' unacknowledged American mentor and Lippman's work The Phantom Public greatly influenced the ideas expressed in Propaganda a year later.
5 minutes ago — BC

Indeed just for the record, one story does not do justice to the whole story. Here is another one older than yours.

Niccolò Machiavelli was a political theorist from the Renaissance period. In his most notable work, The Prince, he writes, "It is better to be feared than to be loved, if one cannot be both." He argues that fear is a better motivator than love, which is why it is the more effective tool for leaders.Mar 23, 2021

To Be Loved or Feared: Which is Better? | Blog | 6 Group — Lily Nathan

That one is important to our understanding of our own evolution and so are the Nazis. The Nazis campaigned for a long time before elections. They went to villages and rented large rooms and questioned people about what made them the angriest, then someone would give a lecture about how their party would resolve the problems and make Germany great again. You know just like our present polls asking people about their political concerns and then writing speeches that please the people. Trump is the star of this show. He is so good at manipulating people he thinks he can get away with anything.

Trump: I could 'shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters'
https://www.cnn.com › 2016/01/23 › politics › donald-tr...
Jan 24, 2016 — Donald Trump boasted Saturday that support for his presidential campaign would not decline even if he shot someone in the middle of a ... — Jeremy Diamond

But he got charged with sexual abuse so maybe the tide will turn against him. For sure up to this point he has been as popular as Hitler was.

As an original Trekkie myself, I can't argue with you there, Athena. LLAP (n o t MAGA :mask:) — 180 Proof

Hot damn, it is not often my path crosses someone who knows what I am talking about. I am curious. Does anything stand out to you about the difference, such as the captains' relationships with their crews and with headquarters?

The original Star Trek TV shows contrasted with the Next Generation Star Trek TV shows is an excellent example of what the change in education did to our culture. Captain Kirk is the John Wayne of outer space and Picard is the "Group Think" generation. — Athena

I don't know whether to laugh at your use of Star Trek as a sign of cultural disintegration or...well... laugh even harder at your selection of Kirk over Picard. I wish @TimeLine were here.

We evolved to get excited in critical situations. Stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline are released. Our blood pressure and heart rate increase. We start breathing faster. Even our blood flow changes. — praxis

Yes, that's known as the fight or flight response, not the critical thinking response.

Nuff said.

Yes, that's known as the fight or flight response, not the critical thinking response. — T Clark

I submit that people with developed critical thinking skills will tend to manage this response much better than people without.

The problem was not, IMO, the "German model of bureaucracy" i — 180 Proof

I think you underestimate the significance of bureaucratic order. Kings had nothing like the power of modern bureaucracies. I have run out of time. Hopefully, I will remember to come back with an explanation because the change has very strong social, political, and economic ramifications.

Does anything stand out to you about the difference, such as the captains' relationships with their crews and with headquarters? — Athena

Well, in comparison to ST TOS's aircraft carrier-like Enterprise, the ST TNG's Enterprise-D is a "Love Boat"-like cruise ship. :smirk:

Cliche with literary pretentions — T Clark

The surrounding text ain't too shabby, literary-wise.
I do not, however, see its relevance to my respecting only those worthy of respect - can't make out where that's supposed to place me in the comparson.

I don't want to take anything away from your affection for Machiavelli. His advice to princes has stood the test of time, But so have the works of propagandists and public relations operators, who have found ways of guiding present tense princes without having to resort to "love me or fear me" alternatives. Better to get the public to obey without them knowing too much about how they are being led about, and who holds the leash,

I don't know how we can maintain a discussion that mixes myth with facts without agreement about what is a myth and what is a fact. — Athena

You have, I think, successfully summarized all exchanges on the subject of all national histories and traditions.

Do you see that as evidence that people aren't interested in political issues. It seems just the opposite to me. — T Clark

What I said prior was the average person has no interest in governance or politics. How did you come up with the opposite given the stats?

What I said prior was the average person has no interest in governance or politics. How did you come up with the opposite given the stats? — L'éléphant

I was surprised by how high the percentages are. Beyond that, I don't think the activities shown are a good measure of interest. My wife has a strong interest in these types of issues and she hasn't done any of them. I do too, and the only one I've done is contribute to a campaign. I don't think we are unusual in that regard.

Beyond that, I don't think the activities shown are a good measure of interest. — T Clark

Pretty much my thoughts.

I didn't mean that having gun ownership is wrong. I meant that for settling issues, talk, discussion and discipline be used. I meant that guns and gun powder should not be used to settle issues.

If the average person does not have an interest in politics etc., it does not mean they are into following some fanatic ideology, so it's okay.

If the average person does not have an interest in politics etc., it does not mean they are into following some fanatic ideology, so it's okay. — Beena

If the sane people have no interest - more to the point, if they feel bereft of agency - they leave the field wide open to fanatics, lunatics and criminals.

Well, in comparison to ST TOS's aircraft carrier-like Enterprise, the ST TNG's Enterprise-D.is a "Love Boat"-like cruise ship. :smirk: — 180 Proof

Whoo, I had a much stronger emotional reaction to that clip than I expected.

I love the beginning with Scott's irritation with the computer wanting exact numbers and then his emotional reunion with the people he knew and the pain of this being a memory of them and not actually them and how cold and analytical Picard appears.

It was in part my irritation with the process of getting a medical appointment that motivated me to start this thread. To me the reliance on technology today is rude, and impersonal, and reduces us to complete powerlessness unless we reply with the exact code the computer wants. We have willingly given up our personal power and liberty and some are welcoming even more AI with open arms. And it isn't just AI but the compliance to its control. Interesting that they chose Scott to make the point. That is a whole different cultural factor. Spock would not get the same message across.

It would be cool to see each member of the crew take the position of Scott in that clip, and to see the many different facets of the same thing.