I don't want to take anything away from your affection for Machiavelli. His advice to princes has stood the test of time, But so have the works of propagandists and public relations operators, who have found ways of guiding present tense princes without having to resort to "love me or fear me" alternatives. Better to get the public to obey without them knowing too much about how they are being led about, and who holds the leash, — BC

Yipes, I do not love Machiavelli! I think he is a scoundrel and that he has reproduced the problem many times through his book. He surely should not be the model of leadership for a democracy. A democracy needs to be rule by reason, not by some clown who is an expert at manipulating people.

The point I am always trying to make is we can not have rule by reason without transmitting a culture that manifests that. My second point is education for technology prepares us to be ruled not to have rule by reason. The 1958 change in education changed our culture and the clip Proof gave us is a pretty good explanation of that. In the clip, Scott represents all of us who remember when things were different, and f**k the damn computer that has replaced a human receptionist.

You have, I think, successfully summarized all exchanges on the subject of all national histories and traditions. — Vera Mont

Oh brother, that is a can of worms! The problem is glaring in the relationship between Israel and Palestine. Each side of this conflict presents their children a different version of their shared history.

How about the US with resistance to people of color being represented as they want to be represented in US history books?

Your comment had a big effect on my understanding of the problem and possible solution. What if a committee made a sincere effort to determine what is myth and what is fact?

If the sane people have no interest - more to the point, if they feel bereft of agency - they leave the field wide open to fanatics, lunatics and criminals. — Vera Mont

You obviously feel very strongly about this. One might even say you are full of passionate intensity.

One might even say you are full of passionate intensity. — T Clark

I may be the worst, but I'm never passionate.

I may be the worst, but I'm never passionate. — Vera Mont

I don't think you're the worst, but then I don't think Trump supporters are either. I think you are both equally responsible for the mess we find ourselves in.

What if a committee made a sincere effort to determine what is myth and what is fact? — Athena

It would have to be international - historians who have no national loyalties, or else have thrashed out their biases among their peers. It is possible for a academics to see past and beneath their own inherited mythology. Indeed, quite a few have published fat, well-documented books on the historical distortions in their own nation's identity-story.
Of course, there is a much larger number of books published with the aim of distorting it farther, to serve one faction or another. It's not easy for a the average reader to evaluate them. And, given the investment people have in - and the sacrifices they are asked to make for their country, belief in that narrative is not easily swayed.

I think you are both equally responsible for the mess we find ourselves in. — T Clark

How so? None of my ancestors ever owned another human being and the longest period I spent in the United States was January, 1993.

Regarding the US, our political democracy without economic democracy is a democracy-in-name-only (DINO) which, from periodic national crisis to crisis, has been dismantling itself brick by brick since 1789 by disproportionately serving Capital at the expense of Labor and Nature (both of which are in revolt: reactionary populisms and global warming, respectively). — 180 Proof

But the arc of history for the past two centuries has been towards liberty. Women and minorities are de facto second class citizens, but they are not de jure second class citizens anymore. I was watching "In the Heat of the Night", the other day. America really has made a lot of progress in the last 60 years. How does that square with what you're saying?

Both are true as I further elaborate in this subsequent post ...

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/807274

In the context of the discussion, I try to keep the forest and the trees – Titannic and the deck chairs – distinct. History isn't a logical argument or mathematical proof, as you know; it's full of incommensurate micro facts and macro trends.

But the arc of history for the past two centuries has been towards liberty. — RogueAI

Sometimes. History is not a well-written novel; its arc more likely to be shaped like A Chinese New Year dragon.

September 11, 2001 changed the situation. Human rights received a set-back as a number of countries decided that fighting terrorism was the key security challenge. This was reasonable enough, but in the process, many of them committed appalling violations of human rights in the name of counter-terrorism. Though it was a few years later - hard to pick a precise date - that this reversal in the progress of rights became an actual backlash against them.

You can see it in your own country, as well as many others.https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2017/12/backlash-against-human-rights

(Somehow, I managed to screw up that citation three times. The quote and link are two different sites referring to the same topic.)*
*No wonder I broke America!

And, of course, regimes are not forever. Democracies are toppled, just as theocracies and other kinds of totalitarian government. Economies collapse; wars are won and lost; borders are redrawn and laws redrafted.

The point I am always trying to make is we can not have rule by reason without transmitting a culture that manifests that. — Athena

Ah yes, "ruled by reason" such as that of misogynistic slave cultures like Classical Greece and Rome upon which our ethnic cleansing settlers' "constitutional republic" had been founded and had legalized chattel slavery and then systemic apartheid until about a half century ago. :brow:

My second point is education for technology prepares us to be ruled not to have rule by reason. The 1958 change in education changed our culture and the clip Proof gave us is a pretty good explanation of that. In the clip, Scott represents all of us who remember when things were different, and f**k the damn computer that has replaced a human receptionist.

My post prior to the one with that clip ends with an emphatic Live Long and Prosper (not Make America Great Again).

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/807297

I agree 80s Trek was a dumbed down, paint-by-numbers version of the 60s Trek, but as an example of the latter's originality inspite of crass commerce considerations in contrast to the former's derivative formulaic commercialism and not an example of your "change of education in 1958" (whatever that means – Sputnik-scare? :roll: ) Both 60s & 80s audiences, for the most part, had lacked the 'classical education' of most of the creators, writers & actors of the original show so it's not surprising that the less challenging and visionary show has always been more popular, especially with under-40somethings.

As for Scotty's gruff irritation on display in that clip, it's not with the computer per se but with his situation – being stranded out of time (75 years in the future) by accident and realizing that he was obsolete. You'd have to watch the episode titled "Relics", Athena, in order to fully appreciate the context of Scotty's forlorn mood.

:up:

None of my ancestors ever owned another human being and the longest period I spent in the United States was January, 1993. — Vera Mont

I wasn't aware you thought these problems are only relevant in the US. On the other hand, that's not even relevant. You are contributing to the problem just by the comments you make here. Trying to resolve conflict with large groups of people while treating them contempt doesn't work, except, I guess, in war.

Yes Vera, you're right. But the general population assumes that a good government will sit authority or it will have to lose its seat, due to the ones in knowledge of everything. So no intetest in politics is there because of that assumption by some. If no interest means wickedness can actually gain power and sit in power and control, then an interest in politics and political parties becomes necessary. But those who show no interest, are not anyone who will be listened to, so they just act dumb, neutral and show no interest.

I was surprised by how high the percentages are. — T Clark

I said the average -- which means it is the largest stats. If you look at the diagram, in 2017 (The Past Year), the numbers of those involved are fairly small. The average person in a given population are not involved.

I wasn't aware you thought these problems are only relevant in the US. — T Clark

On the contrary, I have cited any number of examples of the same phenomenon in other countries, on other continents. Trump is the American manifestation - a particularly sleazy one: they're not all tax-evading, traitorous rapist conmen who even stiff their own lawyers - but some are more vicious, and some are fanatical.

You are contributing to the problem just by the comments you make here. — T Clark

I'm sorry. I didn't realize 'the problem' originated here or was caused by the comments of random people with zero power or influence. Perhaps I should appease them more. Has that worked in the past? But I'm old and running out of time.

Trying to resolve conflict with large groups of people while treating them contempt doesn't work, — T Clark

Nothing works. I'm not "treating" them at all; I'm not communicating with them; there is not a snowball's chance in hell of resolving these conflicts.

If no interest means wickedness can actually gain power and sit in power and control, then an interest in politics and political parties becomes necessary. — Beena

Wickedness doesn't gain power through lack of anyone's interest; it gains power through money, deceit, manipulation and the assistance of people who choose the dark side - for whatever reason.

What if a committee made a sincere effort to determine what is myth and what is fact? — Athena

Can you imagine such an attempt and such a committee. :grin:
Who would you put on such a committee?

Ah yes, the myth of 'discernment by committee' ... :smirk:

Who would you put on such a committee? — universeness

F'rinstance

The World History Association is a professional association of scholars, teachers, and students organized to promote world history by encouraging teaching, research, publications, and personal interactions. It was founded in 1982 by a group of university faculty and secondary-school teachers determined to address the needs of a newly emerging historical sub-discipline. As described in its constitution, its mission is to “promote activities which will increase historical awareness, understanding among and between peoples, and global consciousness.”

The problem isn't who will research well and report their findings as accurately and truthfully as possible - they're already doing that. The problem is giving them a voice that can be heard and heeded.

Nothing works. I'm not "treating" them at all; I'm not communicating with them; there is not a snowball's chance in hell of resolving these conflicts. — Vera Mont

Well, then. I guess there's nothing else to say.

The problem isn't who will research well and report their findings as accurately and truthfully as possible - they're already doing that. The problem is giving them a voice that can be heard and heeded. — Vera Mont

Oh, we could probably find good, wise, trustworthy, mad enough folks, to make up the committee.
I just worry for their protection, if they choose to use evidence, as the main determinator of what is truth and what is myth.
If they then use their findings to support political action such as the redistribution of the wealth of the Catholic church, to help the cold and hungry huddles masses, :grin: or that all future religion must be presented as 'mythical' and not preached as irrefutable truth.
Then they WILL require personal security, and probably a lot of it! :lol:

Ah yes, the myth of 'discernment by committee' — 180 Proof

We gorra keep trying buddy! Surely, things can only get better, when m.a.d IS the other option at the opposite extremity, of the list of options.

I just worry for their protection, if they choose to use evidence, as the main determinator of what is truth and what is myth — universeness

They already publish volumes and volumes. But the only people interested in reading any of it are ones with no power or influence.

Surely, things can only get better, when m.a.d IS the other option — universeness

A valid one. "Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad" is quoted as a "heathen proverb" in Daniel, a Model for Young Men (1854) by Reverend William Anderson Scott.

ones with no power or influence. — Vera Mont

The sad reality is that those who really do have the power to change the human experience for the better is 'the people' united in common cause. Power and influence can be 'home grown,' very quickly in fact, when there is a ground swell of 'revulsion' about a repressive system that has caused much human suffering for a long time. What has seemed unassailable for centuries, can be swept away within months. I like Gandhi's famous quote:
“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always.” ― Mahatma Gandhi

Power and influence can be 'home grown,' very quickly in fact, when there is a ground swell of 'revulsion' about a repressive system that has caused much human suffering for a long time. — universeness

Indeed. That happens periodically, too.

The exact number of people that were killed in the Russian Revolution is disputed amongst historians. The number ranges anywhere from 7 million to 12 million people killed between 1917 and 1923, most of them being civilians.

What comes out the other end is anyone's guess.

The estimated total number of casualties from the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars is 2.5 million combatants' casualties with another one million civilian casualties, which in relation to the population was similar to the First World War.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Iranian-Revolution https://www.britannica.com/event/Arab-Spring

You might like these documentary series Lucy Worsley made about historical lies - she's very entertaining.

Regarding the US, our political democracy without economic democracy is a democracy-in-name-only (DINO) which, from periodic national crisis to crisis, has been dismantling itself brick by brick since 1789 by disproportionately serving Capital at the expense of Labor and Nature (both of which are in revolt: reactionary populisms and global warming, respectively).
— 180 Proof

But the arc of history for the past two centuries has been towards liberty. Women and minorities are de facto second class citizens, but they are not de jure second class citizens anymore. I was watching "In the Heat of the Night", the other day. America really has made a lot of progress in the last 60 years. How does that square with what you're saying? — RogueAI

Vera Mont — Vera Mont

I want to argue the US has lost its way and is headed for a police state if it does not awaken to the necessity of culture for social order and continues down the path of authority over the people. I think our increasing reliance on technology is destroying our liberty and that is why I started this thread.

I think Proof has a very good point about not actually having a democracy unless the Industry uses the democratic model instead of the autocratic model. During the Great Depression Deming tried to convince Industry to adopt his democratic model for industry and it refused. At the end of WW11 Deming went to Japan and taught them the democratic model and Japan went on to out-compete the US for world markets and this has very seriously hurt the US because of the loss of blue-collar Industrial jobs for the average Joe.

We would not have the divides we have today if the US had both education for democracy (culture) and it replaced autocratic Industry with the democratic model. We could have a new golden age that can not happen when few people know that is possible.

The US needs psycho-analysis just as individuals do because we are so unconscious of the past that is manifesting problems today. We began with Industry that followed England's autocratic order, and the patriarchal Bible that supported kings and slavery and made women the property of men. When a journalist interviewed pioneers who remembered our pioneer days, some women were outraged about the big fuss over slavery when their own slavery was ignored and called marriage. We can look to the Iroquois and see a very different social and economic order. Even though these people were very advanced, they faced genocide largely because of religion, greed, and patriotic/autocratic order. The Bible is not a book for democracy.

Ah yes, "ruled by reason" such as that of misogynistic slave cultures like Classical Greece and Rome upon which our ethnic cleansing settlers' "constitutional republic" had been founded and had legalized chattel slavery and then systemic apartheid until about a half-century ago. :brow: — 180 Proof

I love your argument and if I had a better brain I would start a thread to debate the evils of slavery. Unfortunately, my weak brain can handle only one subject at a time.

My post prior to the one with that clip ends with an emphatic Live Long and Prosper (not Make America Great Again). — 180 Proof

I do not understand what that has to do with democracy requiring education for a culture that promotes liberty and justice. You have implied something but I don't know what.

I agree 80s Trek was a dumbed down, paint-by-numbers version of the 60s Trek, but as an example of the latter's originality inspite of crass commerce considerations in contrast to the former's derivative formulaic commercialism and not an example of your "change of education in 1958" (whatever that means – Sputnik-scare? :roll: ) Both 60s & 80s audiences, for the most part, had lacked the 'classical education' of most of the creators, writers & actors of the original show so it's not surprising that the less challenging and visionary show has always been more popular, especially with under-40somethings. — 180 Proof

Thank you for clarifying your argument. Now I will clarify mine. The 1958 National Defense Education Act resulting from the Sputnik scare, came with dropping education for good moral judgment and leaving moral training to the church. That is a disaster!!! It also means replacing education for independent thinking with "Group Think" and that is the most obvious change between the original Star Trek and the New Generation. John Wayne was very much part of the American mythology and Kirk was the John Wayne of outer space. Picard is the "Group Think" captain. Can you remember the distinct difference between them? Star went from advancing our independent thinking culture to advancing the "Group Think" culture, and now add to this no concept of shared morality except the Bible.

We no longer have the culture of the Enlightenment, nor any chance of it manifesting it without education for that. I love that you speak of how much the original Star Trek relied on that cultural influence. Today colleges promote German philosophy more than they promote the Greek philosophy which is the foundation of a culture for democracy. German philosophy is not free of Christian influence. Germany was the model of a humanoid warrior species the Klingons. We now think the glory and power of God means the US and its military might, just as our world war enemy was dominated by its military. And may God, rather than reason save our sorry asses. We must not rely on independent reasoning! That is what Satan wants us to do and we must follow God not reason. You know, Eve disobeyed God and ate the terrible fruit. I must buy a gun as Jesus told us to do and defend against God's enemies. Hail Hitler/Trump. Be clear, this not about one man, but a culture changed by education. We are what defended the world against and AI will increase this reality if we continue to believe we are the manifestation of God's power and glory.

As for Scotty's gruff irritation on display in that clip, it's not with the computer per se but with his situation – being stranded out of time (75 years in the future) by accident and realizing that he was obsolete. You'd have to watch the episode titled "Relics", Athena, in order to fully appreciate the context of Scotty's forlorn mood. — 180 Proof

My post prior to the one with that clip ends with an emphatic Live Long and Prosper (not Make America Great Again). — 180 Proof

I think my understanding of Scott is correct. Not only do some of us fear we are obsolete, but that our Enlightenment past is dying along with the death of our planet. We have fought every war for nothing if we do not turn things around. We are now what we defended the world against. I hope to change this fate for our planet and that might begin with laws that reduce the use of computers and IA and protect our liberty and personal power. When I call someone, I want to have the power to control the moment, not a dam computer program or human receptionist that is programmed just like a computer. I don't think you understand Scott's irritation.

You might like these documentary series Lucy Worsley made about historical lies - she's very entertaining. — Vera Mont

Yeah, I watched that series when it first came out. Lucy looks quite 'Royal' when she cosplay's the role. Her strange little lisp, and the way she clasps her hands together, seems to add to her quirky delivery.

Yes Vera, you're right. But the general population assumes that a good government will sit authority or it will have to lose its seat, due to the ones in knowledge of everything. So no intetest in politics is there because of that assumption by some. If no interest means wickedness can actually gain power and sit in power and control, then an interest in politics and political parties becomes necessary. But those who show no interest, are not anyone who will be listened to, so they just act dumb, neutral and show no interest. — Beena

Culture matters and if we do not understand that we will be dominated by those who lust for power. Democracy is about how we live and it depends on our willingness to take responsibility for living up to the following characteristics. I hope you all agree this list is better than the 10 commandments of God. It is from the grade school series "Democracy Series" "The Way of Democracy". published by the Macmillan Company 1940.

1. Respect for the dignity and worth of the individual human personality.
2. Open opportunity for the individual.
3. Economic and social security.
4. The search for truth. (this is about science and all the humanities not just reading the Bible and obeying and depending on a God like a child.)
5. Free discussion; freedom of speech; freedom of the press. (This does not include the freedom to lie nor the freedom to spread hatred because that is immoral and destructive).
6. Universal education.
7. The rule of the majority; the rights of the minority; the honest ballot.
8. Justice for the common man; trial by jury; arbitration of disputes; orderly legal processes; freedom from search and seizure; right to petition.
9. Freedom of religion.
10. Respect for the rights of private property.
11. The practice of the fundamental social virtues.
12. The responsibility of the individual to participate in the duties of democracy.

If we do not understand this way of life, our democracy is not defended. Only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended. Our education for technology does not defend our democracy. The military does not defend our democracy. Guns can not defend an ideology and way of life.

I want to argue the US has lost its way — Athena

It has been led by the nose-rings. But not just recently. The Civil War era was no more ruled by reason than the moderns one is.

I love your argument and if I had a better brain I would start a thread to debate the evils of slavery. Unfortunately, my weak brain can handle only one subject at a time. — Athena

It's not about the 'evils' of slavery; it's about the incompatibility bondage with democracy. A slave-holding state/economy may be entirely reasonable, but can never get its cultural head around the equality of individuals. That was the fatal compromise that doomed the Great American Experiment.