God, you really have drunk that progressive kool-aid.
It's not just a matter of a bunch of guys holding onto an outdated ideologies, I think you underestimate 1) how biology played a role into forming these traditional ideologies in the first place, and 2) how their frustrated biological drives now plays into forming post-hoc misogynists rationalization. I bet a lot of incels coudn't care less about traditional norms and values... they're mostly frustrated, and invent stories to make it more bearable for themselves. — ChatteringMonkey
they have no power at all
— ChatteringMonkey
People with guns have power. — RogueAI
A man without a woman is like a bully without a victim. — unenlightened
Have we corrupted the beauty ideal as a society? How do we ensure every child grows up feeling attractive/ with good self esteem? — Benj96
Young people everywhere are struggling with developing intimate relationships (and relationships in general), and that is a serious problem. — Tzeentch
It wasn't a tough decision.No Tzeentch, society has decided that women are the victims, so it's okay to marginalize incel men. — ChatteringMonkey
Nobody's marginalized for feeling unloved. They are rejected for acting like jerks - and much or worse. It's just that women who are 'marginalized" in the same way - i.e. have no sexual outlet - don't go around "punishing" - attacking - people.Minassian rented the van some three weeks before he used it as a weapon on a major Toronto street. He told investigators he had set out to kill as many people as possible and that he drew inspiration from the misogynistic "incel" movement of mostly online groups of young men who blame their lack of sexual activity on women.
Asked by investigators how he felt about the harm he had caused, the attacker replied: "I feel like I accomplished my mission".
But there are plenty of women online who share the same frustrated feelings of involuntary celibacy as men. These women want to have romantic and sexual relationships, but for whatever reason, are unable to do so. They call themselves “femcels,” an abbreviation of “female incel.”
Physical attractiveness is not of paramount consideration for women, nor is charisma, compared to dependability, kindness and patience with children. — Vera Mont
Because misogynists are becoming more odious and numerous and have no desire to modify their own behaviour. Under patriarchal law, they could - and in some cultures, still can - be as abusive as they want and still own a woman, or more than one. If women have a choice of mates and are free to leave bad ones, men have to make some accommodation. The ones who know how to do that make out like bunnies and the odious ones are jealous. — Vera Mont
We've recognized how most of these gender norms are, frankly, pure bullshit. Mostly formed by institutions to control society, mostly formed by the privileged to keep power. — Christoffer
In 180 Proof's utopia, we'd castrate and/or lobotomize incels. Or maybe, less invasively, heavily medicate the shits with opiods & sedatives. — 180 Proof
tricky thing then is what the hell do they do about it? — bert1
Maybe they should get off their cellphones and go out to the baseball park — Vera Mont
Maybe they should get off their cellphones and go out to the baseball park or volunteer to pick up roadside garbage or join go a voter recruitment drive. You won't develop intimate relationships without meeting actual people in the actual world. — Vera Mont
Nobody's marginalized for feeling unloved. They are rejected for acting like jerks - and much or worse. It's just that women who are 'marginalized" in the same way - i.e. have no sexual outlet - don't go around "punishing" - attacking - people.
But there are plenty of women online who share the same frustrated feelings of involuntary celibacy as men. These women want to have romantic and sexual relationships, but for whatever reason, are unable to do so. They call themselves “femcels,” an abbreviation of “female incel.” — Vera Mont
God, you really have drunk that progressive kool-aid. — ChatteringMonkey
Why don't we just put them down, like the males of breeding animals we have no use for? Wouldn't that be a major step towards progressive utopia! — ChatteringMonkey
But ultimately the problem is not totally solvable by acceptable means I think, there will always be those who will miss out because they are less attractive/charismatic/rich than others. A healthy society doesn't solve the frustrated desires of those. Historically this has always been a problem. — ChatteringMonkey
society has decided that women are the victims, so it's okay to marginalize incel men... they are evil because they are man, and so technically part of the patriarchy (eventhough they have no power at all and are considered the lowest of the low). — ChatteringMonkey
It's like we're teaching kids from a young age to be narcissists (ergo, lacking core self-esteem and instead deriving it from the perceptions of others), turning the successful ones into social vampires and turning the others into anemic dregs. With narcissism social interaction is a zero-sum game.
Social media plays a huge role in this. — Tzeentch
Isn't the truth of that dependent on context though? What if a woman has lots of support and an independent income? Bags of security, no need of that from a partner. Might they not prioritise the fun stuff more? — bert1
I'm feeling a bit queasy. That happens when I read knee-jerk, claptrap hatred for men. I'll cut Vera Mont some slack - Women lacking respect for men is run-of-the-mill. — T Clark
here's nobody at the baseball park. They're all on their goddamn phones. My son is having this trouble. He can't attend school, but there are no children messing about outside like kids used to do, throwing stones and showing their bums to the peado in the bushes and fun stuff like that. — bert1
They shouldn't be expected to do it all on their own. What happened to their support network? The adult mentors and community organizers, coaches, teachers, scout-masters, den-mothers, big sisters and brothers, and church-ladies?The solution 'just go out and meet people' is a major barrier for the young who were caught up in this mess. — Tzeentch
Yes, egging one another on; reinforcing resentment and blaming others for one's own shortcomings, instead of encouraging positive change. Charisma is rare and accidental and unreliable; courtesy, interest, versatility, tolerance and humour are far better assets. And of course, acceptance of the fact that everybody isn't ever going to get first pick.It's a bit of a chicken or the egg problem... they don't become jerks in a vacuum, it's a bit that good old resentment playing a role here. — ChatteringMonkey
In essence what it does is widen the community to which one must conform to he seen or heard. Thus expectations are much higher across such a broad sphere than they ever would have been in a small close knit circle of friends.
Being aware of global society from our phones, we are aware of greater heights of beauty, greater depths of skill - from extreme sports to cooking to all sorts. We see the best of the best in every discipline going viral. — Benj96
What used to be genuine popularity for your authentic self has become being a brand, self promoting, being all things to all people, and if you can't, fake it till you make it/edit the shit out of yourself, and this just isn't a true social relationship like the ones that evolved for millenia. — Benj96
I don't think the incel movement started with Covid lockdowns, nor will it end with the pandemic. — Vera Mont
They shouldn't be expected to do it all on their own. What happened to their support network? The adult mentors and community organizers, coaches, teachers, scout-masters, den-mothers, big sisters and brothers, and church-ladies? — Vera Mont
For example, weren't high standards of beauty already available to everyone before the era of social media, through things like magazines and TV? — Tzeentch
Yes, egging one another on; reinforcing resentment and blaming others for one's own shortcomings, instead of encouraging positive change. Charisma is rare and accidental and unreliable; courtesy, interest, versatility, tolerance and humour are far better assets. And of course, acceptance of the fact that everybody isn't ever going to get first pick. — Vera Mont
Christoffer, I disagree with the whole way you look at these things, because I'm a materialist/physicalist, and believe ideas usually follow the physical and biological reality more that the other way around. Obviously it isn't that simple or unidirectional, but I think ideology are more post-hoc rationalization than that they are causes. So I don't think we will get past that here. — ChatteringMonkey
Isn't the truth of that dependent on context though? What if a woman has lots of support and an independent income? Bags of security, no need of that from a partner. Might they not prioritise the fun stuff more? — bert1
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