Women lacking respect for men is run-of-the-mill. When men do it, it's just pitiful. — T Clark
What respect should we give misogynist and racist people? — Christoffer
And throughout generations of traditions that no longer function in relation to older power structures, people start to notice norms that seem to exist without any rational reason.
It's no coincidence that women in Western societies managed to reach equality in voting around the same time as religious states in the West became more and more secularized. — Christoffer
The fact is that people create culture and society, we form ideas based on either delusions or rationality and everything in between. And people can be downright stupid. — Christoffer
It probably doesn't help that social media software is almost exclusively designed by the nerdy types that are mainly interested in numbers and maximizing the effectiveness of algorithms, and seem to lack awareness that their products are affecting are actual people — Tzeentch
In other words, It's not the realization that those traditional norms existed without reason that gave rise those progressive ideas, they precisely followed from and are a logical conclusion of christian values (who were an inversion of Roman values, and pagan values, that came before). — ChatteringMonkey
Yeah, big fat tongue in my cheek ... but I am intolerant of the intolerant (even antisocial with regard to the antisocial), what I call 'responsible freedom' (i.e. engagée). IMO, radicalized violent misogynists / racists / fascists ought not to be coddled or excused, medicalized or given any quarter whatsoever. — 180 Proof
What respect should we give misogynist and racist people? — Christoffer
That's not the question at hand here. The correct question is "What respect should we give people whose behavior we don't approve of or understand?" — T Clark
It does rather seem to drag on. But that guy drove the van onto the sidewalk in 2018, by when the incel movement was pretty deeply rooted, so it can't have been related to this form of isolation.Oh, that's interesting. I got the impression that kids avoided light and air before the lockdown as well, but maybe you are right. Hmm. I can't remember very well. — bert1
My son didn't have any friends before either, but he didn't really want any.
The economic landscape is not helping.My take on this is that parents are more overworked than ever, and lack their own support network to fall back on, which in previous generations was provided by for example grandparents and the extended family, perhaps even an entire neighbourhood. Again we see social atomization. — Tzeentch
It never seemed to be an issue when spinsters were despised, even if they didn't whine about it, even when being a footloose bachelor was envied. It didn't seem to be an issue when homely women were caricatured and called names.Yes that would be a more positive reaction, some obviously don't have the mental strength to avoid the pitfalls... I guess what bothers me is that the total lack of attempt at understanding and empathy is deemed fine in this case, whereas generally it is literally the basis of our morality. — ChatteringMonkey
I hope that doesn't signal a problem. Some people need more privacy than others. Some, because their talent and interest inclines them to solitary pursuits: graphic arts, literature or academic study; some because they have matters to contemplate, ideas to work through; some due to particular fears or general lack of confidence; some because they're hypersensitive, so that their feelings and perceptions are overwhelmed by too much interaction, or more simply, they lack access to a compatible pool of potential friends - that's more likely if a child is exceptional in some way. It might be a good idea to investigate the reason - it's possible the boy could use some help. Or he may be quite content until he's ready to move on to the next phase. — Vera Mont
How does it feel to be objectified as a man, by women that earn more, have higher social status and influence. — Benj96
Luckily for us tho, I think women are more inclined to entertain our emotions and feelings on the subject and to support us in being equals rather then becoming as toxically matriarchal as patriarchy has been towards women in the past. We have shit to learn from women. We should listen up. — Benj96
It's not just a matter of a bunch of guys holding onto an outdated ideologies, I think you underestimate 1) how biology played a role into forming these traditional ideologies in the first place, and 2) how their frustrated biological drives now plays into forming post-hoc misogynists rationalization. I bet a lot of incels coudn't care less about traditional norms and values... they're mostly frustrated, and invent stories to make it more bearable for themselves. — ChatteringMonkey
Maybe not, but we can refuse to be worse by doing nothing to stop those a*holes from harming anyone. Watch out for that pacifistic false equivalence, Benj – it has only ever encouraged bullies, segregationists & fascists.If one reduces themselves to physical harm towards those that wish to do physical harm, then are we really any better? — Benj96
None. I look forward to the day that men are properly humbled by the clout of women - their intelligence, their strength and resolve - strong fierce mothers, exceptional wives, admirable daughters. Feminity has always moderated the testosterone fuelled recklessness of man. And it was always undervalued, considered weak for that fact. — Benj96
Understand it, and act accordingly. I believe in hearing people out and applying reasoning to show them the result of their claims/beliefs. — Benj96
The most manly of men, in my opinion, are those that willingly submit to the power of the feminine. — Benj96
Then one must look to prehistory. — Vera Mont
among those ages 25 to 64, men outnumber women by a large margin among never-married adults (125 men for every 100 women), but men are outnumbered by women among previously married adults (71 men for every 100 women).
Among never-married young adults with post-graduate degrees, women outnumber men by a large margin. There are 77 never-married men ages 25 to 34 with post-graduate degrees for every 100 women with similar educational credentials. Among never-married young adults with a bachelor’s degree, the male-to-female ratio is 102 men for every 100 women.
I think increasing social atomization is at the root of this, basically forcing young people into an artificial dating scene that for obvious reasons doesn't appeal to nor suit many of them. — Tzeentch
maybe create a healthier dating app that emphasises more the character of a person than their appearance. Many people would go for that. There's success and money to be made and a gap to be filled in the market — Benj96
So those without them need to nurture charisma to overcome the initial barrier. — Benj96
This is what triggered me, I don't think this is how it works. In fact I even think Christianity, Catholicism and Protestantism following it, played an essential role in the formation of enlightenment ideals of equality, giving rise to individual rights and feminism. In other words, It's not the realization that those traditional norms existed without reason that gave rise those progressive ideas, they precisely followed from and are a logical conclusion of christian values (who were an inversion of Roman values, and pagan values, that came before). — ChatteringMonkey
Aside from that, the biggest contributing factor I think for emancipatory values accelerating in the west, was fossil fuels, the industrial revolution and the technology build on that, creating material conditions that made these new ideologies possible. — ChatteringMonkey
That's not the question at hand here. The correct question is "What respect should we give people whose behavior we don't approve of or understand?" — T Clark
I'm wondering whether this is based on personal familiarity with incels, or whether it is derived from a general understanding of changing society. — BC
I don't know anyone who is or claims to be an incel--meaning just that I can't identify anyone that way. How many men are thought to be incels? Why doesn't auto-correction recognize the word 'incel'? Is there a female equivalent? Are there any rational justifications for the incels's claims? — BC
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