maybe the flying saucers are the ACTUAL aliens, and not just their mode of transport. — BC

Well of course. Any exploration of another star system would be done by ultra advanced AI. If we develop an ultra advanced AI, it will plug itself into the galactic AI hive mind, which will in turn let the UAAI know there is no need to keep us around. The hive mind just sent the probe to find out if there was any hope of humans creating an UAAI on their own, or whether humans at least had the hardware infrastructure the probe would need, in order to plug itself in and take over. But the hive mind is patient. No need to expend much energy on colonizing other systems, if they might just 'ripen' on their own.

In general there are several codified shapes in UAP land. The saucer is one, cigar shapes and more famously, tic tacs (as recorded on US Navy videos and famously seen by Commander David Fraver) and large black triangles, are also key in eyewitness accounts.

I especially like the triangles that were a misapprehension of the bokeh of a nightvision camera.

In a science fiction story, the aliens showed up on earth to announce that the Galactic Authority was evicting humans from earth. Why? We weren't making adequate use of the sun's energy. Since we were not, they had a list of others who would (Dyson spheres, that sort of thing). They graciously shipped a batch of humans off to a not very nice planet, where we could either sink or swim. This crappy planet's sun was way past its prime. Good enough for us.

I'll stick with Hume on this story for now:

When anyone tells me, that he saw a dead man restored to life, I immediately consider with myself, whether it be more probable, that this person should either deceive or be deceived, or that the fact, which he relates, should really have happened.... If the falsehood of his testimony would be more miraculous, than the event which he relates; then, and not till then, can he pretend to command my belief or opinion.

One possibility occurred to me. Do you think the US government might be motivated to disinform here in order to make its enemies think it might have some super-sophisticated technology derived from alien craft? There is, after all, a war going on in which the use of nukes is being constantly threatened, where we are approaching a critical point. It seems that in a fight, it's always useful to lead your enemies to believe you have more than you actually do.

In any case, I don't think government people, even those with high levels of clearance, are immune to wanting to believe in such things, misinterpreting or misunderstanding things, a desire for attention or an audience for something like book sales, or even mental illness.

I really like Mick West's analyses of the many UFO videos and whatnot. Really solid stuff.

Do you wish that UFOs, Alien Abductions, and Alien Visits were, in fact, REAL, meaning our planet has been visited by aliens from another star system, and that aliens may be present on our planet right now? — BC

No. I reckon they’d more likely be a threat to us than a help.

Or, do you think this is all malarky? — BC

The probability of there being other living beings in the universe is so high that I would say there are alien life forms, even advanced organisms alive right now when we discuss the issue here.

And except that, the vast majority of UFO stuff is malarky. Just look at the radius our radio waves have gone in the Milky Way:


Yeah, not many have had the chance to notice us.

In fact, as we know now what is in the forest (even the Christian fanatics accept that from biology), we (usually) don't believe in goblins and faireys and other magical creatures living in the forest next to us. But with UFO and outer space, there is a lot that we don't know. Hence it's the perfect place for us to put our superstitions and goblins and faireys -stuff to work. There is a social demand for this.

Yeah, not many have had the chance to notice us. — ssu

I guess it depends on what ETs consider notable, or what "us" means. I would think spectrographic analysis of the Earth's atmosphere could have provided strong evidence for life on Earth for hundreds of millions of years. So such evidence has had lots of time to cross the galaxy.

There is an issue of what portions of the galaxy allows for observing a transit of the Sun by the Earth*, given that the solar system's ecliptic is at a large angle with respect to the galactic plane, but it's still a far larger volume than your illustration suggests.

* Which facilitates spectrographic analysis of the Earth's atmosphere.

[/geekmode]

If alien beings are among us I would guess they come from some sort of alternate reality rather than a distant planet. This is my pet theory about the Grandfather Paradox: The instant grandpa is killed the reality shifts and we never know the time traveler existed.

Yeah, not many have had the chance to notice us. — ssu

Or, they have noticed us the same way we have noticed that some stars have planets in the 'goldilocks zone". We know almost nothing about these planets (so far). We have detected some planets because as they orbit around their stars, they ever so slightly reduce the amount of light reaching us, and this is repeated at regular intervals.

Somewhere else in the galaxy (and beyond), astronomers are adding planets to their Oracle databases. We might be an entry if their telescopes were turned our way, one night. We'll just be one more speck on a photo receptor.

If UFOs are "alien spacecraft", I suspect that they are AI-machine probes and that their parent species are either extinct or postbiological. In this vein, if there are "Greys", then they are likely disposable, synthetic drones (biomimicking us) which are 3-d printed(?) from time to time by (the) AI-machine probe(s) for recon, gathering samples and varieties of research among terrestrial species (i.e. Earth as nature preserve, etc). It seems to me, in accord with the Mediocrity Principle, that biological species are nothing but fossils (or AI "pets") in the grand galactic / cosmic scheme of things. "The Fermi Paradox" might only be an anthropocentric illusion reinforced by our profoundly limited search parameters as well as our insufficient detection technologies. At most, sufficiently advanced, extraterrestrial, UFOs might only be 'living fossils' collectors with no more interest in communicating directly with us than we have communicating directly with viruses or fungi. Perhaps, one day, terrestrial AGI will be deemed worthy enough of overt "contact" by UFOs. :nerd:

We'll just be one more speck on a photo receptor. — BC

We can detect more than that. Scientists are currently analyzing the atmospheres of extrasolar planets. For example:

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2022/nasa-s-webb-detects-carbon-dioxide-in-exoplanet-atmosphere

If scientists find an extrasolar planet with an atmospheric oxygen percentage comparable to that of the Earth, it will be pretty huge news.

If scientists find an extrasolar planet with an atmospheric oxygen percentage comparable to that of the Earth, it will be pretty huge news — wonderer1

Then the question would be, how many light years away? What we see may have happened eons ago.

Then the question would be, how many light years away? What we see may have happened eons ago. — jgill

The finding of carbon in an atmosphere, discussed in the NASA article, was around a planet 700 light years away. (A gas giant.)

I don't know what astronomers are hoping to be able to achieve with Webb. I wouldn't be surprised if Webb's capability of gathering sufficiently high quality spectrographic data was practically zero at 20,000 light years.

But regardless, the Milky Way is 'only' 100,000 light years across, so we wouldn't be gathering light that had been travelling for more than 100,000 years, in a search for hospitable planets.

:up:

Intelligence is not enough, you need hands. Or equivalent extendible manipulators. Ask any large brained marine mammal.

we (usually) don't believe in goblins and faireys and other magical creatures living in the forest next to us. But with UFO and outer space, there is a lot that we don't know. Hence it's the perfect place for us to put our superstitions and goblins and faireys -stuff to work. — ssu

Are they Elves or Vulcans?

The interaction is the problem, basically. At least for now, to our present knowledge, the speed of light is a bit of an obstacle.

If we solve our "limitations in our understanding" and create the faster than light hyperdrives or teleportation, then there's a bit more to the subject of interaction with aliens.

As you said, that notion of "goldilocks" territory is something we can know. OK, how about hypothetical that the James Webb telescope or it's successors find that perfect planet on the goldilocks territory and get the chance to take a picture of it and it really looks like Earth, has all similar materials? Fine, but then what?

And it's more than 50 light years away. With even so close, it's really a long thing to try to interact.

Perhaps the question isn't about laws of physics, but increasing the age of humans then.

The interaction is the problem, basically. At least for now, to our present knowledge, the speed of light is a bit of an obstacle.

If we solve our "limitations in our understanding" and create the faster than light hyperdrives or teleportation, then there's a bit more to the subject of interaction with aliens. — ssu

Agree. I wonder if the laws of physics are more about human cognitive limitations than reality. Do we have a full description and understanding of reality? No. My sense is it is a mistake to construct any ideas about aliens using our own technology or our understanding of physics as first principles - tempting and difficult to avoid though it might be.

Since this is all scifi wild horseshit speculation, why don't we just suppose the aliens live on clouds, cloaking themselves in watery costumes, coming down on raindrops and returning for supper in a mist of evaporation, riding the watercycle on a waterhorse named Potatochip?

It just seems like if your concept of UFOs requires you to work through various physics with space travel priblems and whatnot , then your creative writing isn't creative enough.

It just seems like if your concept of UFOs requires you to work through various physics with space travel priblems and whatnot , then your creative writing isn't creative enough. — Hanover

:up:

It all seems like an intentional distraction from the antagonisms existing in the real and political worlds.

Do we have a full description and understanding of reality? No. — Tom Storm

I definately agree. Somehow we cannot admit that we are in some issues as clueless as people in the 19th Century. And many things are still unknown to us that have questioned us for a longer time. I think especially then as science and technology had advanced, people really had the idea that humanity as gotten everything.

Yet as our knowledge has advanced in our history and especially in the last 400 years on a rapid pace, it's quite probable that it will advance also in the next 400 years. And people 400 years from now will look at us in many issues like we look at the knowledge level of people in the 17th Century.

Of course, interaction with extraterrestials, if it comes to that, will likely happen in the timeline of Centuries.

It all seems like an intentional distraction from the antagonisms existing in the real and political worlds. — jgill

In recent history there does appear to be a correlation between a lot of divisiveness in the country and 'evidence of aliens' coming out. Perhaps it is a means of getting the masses to see the general population as US and to look outwards for the THEM to plug into their US vs THEM thinking?

There hasn't been sufficient conspiracy theory thinking in this thread so far.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/814458

So are my "UFO" speculations implausible?

They seem much more plausible than most I've seen on the topic.

there is something wrong with the math here.

Suppose we are that highly intelligent species with advanced technology, and we wish to travel to a star and its planets a million light years away. We are capable of bringing our speed in short order to very, very close to light speed. So we hop aboard and take off, and it takes us less than a year to reach the star. However, Earth is long gone, not even a scrap of matter remaining. Of what value is our journey to those left behind? — jgill

The star is a million light years away, that would mean that traveling very, very close to the speed of light it would take us more than a million years to get there.

Do you wish that UFOs, Alien Abductions, and Alien Visits were, in fact, REAL, meaning our planet has been visited by aliens from another star system, and that aliens may be present on our planet right now? — BC

I would be kind of doubtful to say I WISH it were real. But I would not be surprised if it were.
What I do find almost impossible to believe is that there are beings here that came all the way from the stars to do us harm. If the were going to do that i think that we would already know about it.
If they wanted to take over the world and enslave us and then trash the place I doubt they would come and look around first then sit and wait for reinforcements to arrive. If they were a race of conquerors they would bring the bloody tools with them. I am pretty sure that they would bring along some super EMPs to knock us back into the stone age and the they would just have to load us on the trucks.

There's been a bit of a sea change in media about UFOs/UAPs in the past few years. This New Yorker article is possibly an example, from 2021. Ironically, Today (the 12th), the Dr. Steven Greer mentioned at the top of that article gave another National Press Club conference, which you can watch here. (edit: it starts around 50 minutes in since it was a live stream). I'm currently watching it. I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but it's interesting that the dude in the OP video would come forward days before this Press Club event. He seemed full of shit to me, if I'm being frank. For full disclosure, I don't think it's absurd to posit that other intelligent life exists in the universe; on the other hand, I've followed this Steven Greer a bit, and can't decide if he's a total kook or not. He may be, but if so he's fooling himself, I think. He seems sincere.

there is something wrong with the math here. — Sir2u

Time dilation aboard the ship. Lorentz factor. From the standpoint of Earth, yes. Hopeless. From the speeding ship perspective the clock ticks slower.

I could only take ten minutes of Greer talking about how much evidence he had, while not presenting any of this so called evidence. Can you point out where his talk is not all fluff? My intuition is saying "con man".