Doesn't it make more sense to have a holiday for the passing of the 13th amendment when it became illegal to have slavery everywhere in the United States? Why a holiday because Texas was slow to get the message? And shouldn't a holiday be based on our greatest triumphs, and not a reminder of our worst failings? — TiredThinker

It's a holiday because this is a day that's important to black people and it's been that way for a 150 years. What you have to say isn't what's important.

What is the reason for Juneteenth to be a national holiday? — TiredThinker

In 2021, the holiday was signed into law by newly elected President Biden in order to pander and/or keep a campaign promise to Black Americans who'd voted him into office in 2020 and are needed for his reelection in 2024.

Or, why not a holiday for the Emancipation Proclamation which was the news to arrive late in Galveston. Lots of notable black people to commemorate.

We need more holy days with time off. How about Joe Hill's birthday, or Eugene Debs death day, or several union holidays? Let's celebrate Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie, Phil Ochs, Bread and Roses Day?

:fire:

I know it's hard for you not to observe.

it wasn't for our elections slavery might of gone on much longer. — TiredThinker

Slavery was made in illegal in the US by a presidential proclamation. Previously, elections had resulted in a pro-slavery Supreme Court that was on the verge of making slavery a national institution. On the issue of slavery, American democracy failed.

What makes a holiday deserving of being a holiday? — TiredThinker

This thread should be transferred to the "Philosophy of Holidays" section.

Slavery was made in illegal in the US by a presidential proclamation — frank

No, actually it wasn't. The Proclamation states:

"Now, therefore I, Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States, by virtue of the power in me vested as Commander-in-Chief, of the Army and Navy of the United States in time of actual armed rebellion against the authority and government of the United States, and as a fit and necessary war measure for suppressing said rebellion, do, on this first day of January, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and in accordance with my purpose so to do publicly proclaimed for the full period of one hundred days, from the day first above mentioned, order and designate as the States and parts of States wherein the people thereof respectively, are this day in rebellion against the United States, the following, to wit:

Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana, (except the Parishes of St. Bernard, Plaquemines, Jefferson, St. John, St. Charles, St. James Ascension, Assumption, Terrebonne, Lafourche, St. Mary, St. Martin, and Orleans, including the City of New Orleans) Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Virginia, (except the forty-eight counties designated as West Virginia, and also the counties of Berkley, Accomac, Northampton, Elizabeth City, York, Princess Ann, and Norfolk, including the cities of Norfolk and Portsmouth[)], and which excepted parts, are for the present, left precisely as if this proclamation were not issued.

And by virtue of the power, and for the purpose aforesaid, I do order and declare that all persons held as slaves within said designated States, and parts of States, are, and henceforward shall be free; and that the Executive government of the United States, including the military and naval authorities thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of said persons."

Only the areas of the South that were in rebellion had their slaves freed, which means that in the Union states where there were slaves and in the captured areas of the South, the slaves remained slaves. So, the slaves were freed in the areas where Lincoln did not control and in the areas he did contol they were left enslaved.

Curious.

One should read this history. The basis for the Proclamation was to recast the Civil War as one over slavery as opposed to simply keeping the Union intact, so as to remove any willingness of England or France to diplomatically intervene and give credence to the Confederacy as a sovereign nation.

So obvious was Lincoln's intent that he withheld the Proclamation for some time until he he could show he was not losing the war and trying to use it just to derail the South's best strategy. He waited until he defended the southern attack directly against the Army of the Potomac just outside the nation's capital in the battle of Antietam before he issued the Proclamation, presenting it on the heels of a victory, although it wasn't quite as decisive as he had wanted.

This is to say the Proclamation was a strategic manuever.

The 13th Amendment illegalized slavery, not the declaration of a single man over a territory in rebellion that he did not control.

And shouldn't a holiday be based on our greatest triumphs, and not a reminder of our worst failings? — TiredThinker

Isn't overcoming your worst failings one of your greatest triumphs?

It's not that your celebrating your existing failings, like an "Holiday for income inequality" would be. Besides, what's so bad about self-flagellation?


(Of course the Capirotes of these Italian peninents would get the wrong message in the US)

Joe Hill's birthday — BC

I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night, alive as you or me.

This is to say the Proclamation was a strategic manuever. — Hanover

Historians say that probably wasn't the real reason. We just know that the only way to issue it was through war power, which required the claim that it would support the war effort. Lincoln held onto the emancipation document for two years into the war. He was torn about issuing because of the prevalent view that doing so would threaten the integrity of the whole American society. We don't know why exactly he decided to issue it, but we know it was after a carriage ride with Charles Sumner, a prominent abolitionist, who supposedly told him that if he didn't free the slaves, he's be dooming the country to future warfare.

The rest, yes. Bla bla bla. No southerners voted for or against the 13th Amendment because there weren't any in Congress at the time. That's not exactly a democratic success story.

On the issue of slavery, American democracy failed. — frank

This!

:up:

On the issue of slavery, American democracy failed. — frank

I think the rejection of slavery was evidence of a great democratic uprising and the existence of it was through great democratic suppression

I think the rejection of slavery was evidence of a great democratic uprising and the existence of it was through great democratic suppression — Hanover

Really? But abolitionists made up about 3-5% of the white American population. The rest were either pro-slavery, or pretty apathetic about it.

When Lincoln got to office, all the experienced politicians told him to advocate a constitutional amendment that would permanently protect slavery in the south. That was the the typical northern view. They really didn't want war, and they knew the Supreme Court was about to make the status of free state unconstitutional.

The events leading up to the Civil War are some of the most bizarre in human history. It wasn't a great democratic uprising. It was more like the three stooges fall ass backwards into freeing the slaves.

I know a few black people who had never heard of the holiday until it became national. Largely celebrated in Texas.

I wouldn't have the Emancipation Proclamation as a holiday because it only freed slaves in states that opposed the union. Many northern states continued having slaves until the 13th amendment.

This is to say the Proclamation was a strategic manuever. — Hanover

I was taught in 7th grade history that the Civil War was about slavery, which is why Lincoln "freed the slaves". With several more history classes, and some reading over the last few decades, I would agree that it was a strategic maneuver. It wasn't a foredrawn conclusion that the Union would win the war, after all, any more than it's a foredrawn conclusion that Ukraine will win its war.

That's not exactly a democratic success story. — frank

History is full of inconsistencies, contradictions, great and shabby compromises, falsehoods, truth, and more. A lot of pieces in the American Experience were/are not democratic success stories. Maybe, possibly, perhaps the greatest success in the American Experience is the story that we are the very model of the perfect democracy. Everything about slavery flew in the face of our ideals, but democratic processes allowed for the formal institutionalization of slavery.

I wouldn't have the Emancipation Proclamation as a holiday because it only freed slaves in states that opposed the union. Many northern states continued having slaves until the 13th amendment. — TiredThinker

Well, to be honest, I don't give a rat's ass for the Juneteenth celebration -- it just isn't part of my heritage. Ditto for the Emancipation Proclamation, or VE or VJ Day. Some people in Minnesota celebrate Syttende Mai the 17 of May (Norwegian Constitution Day), Svenskarnas Dag (Scandinavian Midsummer Festival), Cinco De Mayo (5th of May) or Deutsche Tage (German Days) in June. These aren't important to me, and they aren't general enough to be national holidays.

That's the problem I see in Juneteenth -- it's not a general celebratory event for all black people--mainly southern Texans, let alone everyone else. Ditto for Kwanzaa.

All that said, people can and will do their own thing with celebrations, and that's fine. I would just as soon that Gay Pride Day be a gay event, and not a city-wide, state-wide, or nation-wide party.

I know a few black people who had never heard of the holiday until it became national. Largely celebrated in Texas. — TiredThinker

By the time President Biden declared Juneteenth a federal holiday, almost all states had voted independently to commemorate Juneteenth as a day of observance. — USA Today

History is full of inconsistencies, contradictions, great and shabby compromises, falsehoods, truth, and more. A lot of pieces in the American Experience were/are not democratic success stories. Maybe, possibly, perhaps the greatest success in the American Experience is the story that we are the very model of the perfect democracy. Everything about slavery flew in the face of our ideals, but democratic processes allowed for the formal institutionalization of slavery. — BC

That's true. The ideals are still beautiful though, don't you think?

Well, to be honest, I don't give a rat's ass for the Juneteenth celebration -- it just isn't part of my heritage. — BC

I confess that I don't celebrate Juneteenth. Nor do I celebrate MLK's birthday, or Washington's birthday, or Labor Day, or Memorial Day, or any other national holiday with the possible exception of Thanksgiving and Christmas, if by "celebrate" we mean anything more than taking the day off from work if we're allowed to do so. The notion that we must or should celebrate any holiday--or anything, for that matter-seems peculiar, if we refer to engaging in any enjoyable or happy activity. If we celebrate a holiday by taking the day off from work, however, I'll celebrate them all, regardless of who or what the holiday is claimed to note.

:up:

:up:

In an era of deliberate, wide-spread voter suppression by GOP legistlatures, it would be far less of an empty, symbolic gesture to celebrate Voting Rights Day (August 6, 1965) rather than the folkloric "emancipation" of Juneteenth (1865), which was followed by a century of jim crow segregation – de facto disenfranchisement – which had required a federal statute to establish enforceable liberty for blacks, browns & women (that's been strategically under legistlative and judicial threat for the last two decades). Also, get rid of both "MLK, Jr Day" and "President's Day" too and at least establish a federal Election Day holiday instead.

:up:

I'll drink to that.