What corruption? — NOS4A2

The charade doesn't work @NO4A2. You've been doing this for years and neither we (edit: Ok, maybe some of us do) nor you believe you would fail that quiz.

I’m so inundated with Fox News that I may have missed it. — NOS4A2

Indeed.

No corruption at all. Totally clean. Unless you can provide a quote of him stating “I am engaging in corruption.”

He’s not pretending. He really believes it’s C. — Mikie

Honestly, I don't think he does, and the game he's playing with himself must eventually get boring.

I’m being genuine, though. I hope you are as well.

Well if it’s all a ruse, I give full marks for consistency.

All that incitement and corruption we’ve listed. The treatment by the justice system, the press, the intelligence community clearly favor both exactly the same. And the scales of our judgement remain even.

No offence intended, I could of course be wrong, but it's more plausible to me that you're being dishonest and partisan and cynically using the moral issue of corruption to attack your side's opponent. The media does this all the time. It's known as propaganda and it's generally glaringly obvious.

No offence taken. I’ve made no attempt to hide my bias, so being called a partisan is expected. But that no one else is being accused in the same way arouses enough suspicion that I doubt it is as fair and balanced a take as we’re all pretending it is. I think it is its own propaganda, used as it is to cover for the fact that we’ve been wrong about quite a few political matters, and for quite some time now.

But what do I know? My political knowledge is zero.

Ok.

Anyhow, you do have a good side apparent on other threads, so it's not intended as a sweeping denunciation or anything.

You’re not so bad yourself. Cheers.

Ok, well that ended better than I thought it would. :sweat: *runs away*

But if you want to believe a political rally is "incitement to insurrection", — NOS4A2

The problem is, not all "political rallies" are created equally. It is not as if the rally was held without the seeds of a deep state conspiracy having first been planted and cultivated. A conspiracy that feeds on resentment and a sense that "true patriots" are victims who must rally and fight to right wrongs and restore the nation to an imaginary time when America was great (for them).

But none of this starts with Donald. Back when America was great he was learning by example from his father Fred:

One such lesson came when Donald was seven years old, and his father was brought before a U.S. Senate committee investigating abuses in a housing program for war veterans and middle class families. President Eisenhower had been outraged to learn of the bribes that developers paid to bureaucrats and of the alleged profiteering practiced by Trump and others. Ike called them “sons of bitches.”

As federal investigators had discovered, the elder Trump had collected an extra $1.7 million in rent—equivalent to $15 million today—before beginning to pay back his low-cost government loan. He was able to do this because a bureaucrat named Clyde Powell approved the paperwork. Powell, who had never been paid more than a modest government salary, had mysteriously amassed a small fortune. (While it was clear Powell accepted bribes, the sources were never officially identified.) In addition to collecting the extra rent, Trump paid himself a substantial architect’s fee. And he charged inflated rents based on an estimate of construction costs that was far greater than what he actually spent. All of this was legal, even if it did victimize taxpayers, veterans, and other renters.

More here

In the eyes of Fred and Don they are the victims when the government interferes and does not allow them to run their business as they want. The law, when not used by them as a weapon, is an impediment to be worked around or removed. All in the name of freedom.

The irony here is that Trump, other business moguls, and political swamp creatures turned the tables. Railing against the "elite" they managed to obscure the fact that they are themselves an influential elite.

The proximate reason for the "rally" was not to hold a peaceful and ineffectual protest but to prevent Biden from becoming president. To this end, among other things, lies were propagated that the election was stolen. If the system is as corrupt as Trumps supporters believe it to be, then the system is part of the problem and cannot be part of the solution. The only solution, as they have been led to believe, is insurrection.

Would you rather DeSantis was the GOP nominee?

The real problem is the preferential treatment, the justice system and intelligence community protecting one of its own. — NOS4A2

The problem with your claim is that it seem to merely be parrotting a GOP talking point, that is rooted in applying confirmation bias to anecdotal evidence, applying false equivalences, and an unwillingness to consider their guy uniquely culpable. We're all partisan, but that doesn't excuse poor reasoning.

A lot of people in the Trump sphere w8llfully did bad things, and there may very well be enough evidence to prosecute. That fact doesn't entail bias. AFAIK, there's nothing close on the left. The comparisons seem rooted in:

1) Dissatisfaction with the failure to indict Hillary in 2016 (ignoring the reason she wasn't indicted).
2) Treating weak evidence of wrongdoing by Joe Biden as proof of crimes, and then leaping to the conclusion DOJ is treating him differently.
3) Failing to consider the possibility Trump (et al) willfully broke multiple laws, and there's sufficient evidence to prosecute.

You're a smart guy, so I'd love to hear your perspective- in particular, describing your basis for believing the DOJ applies a double standard between Dems & GOP (cognizant of the issues I described).

I never said there was a double standard between GOP and Dems, or left a right. The double standards are between those who oppose the deep state and those who do not.

But this comparison in particular was rooted in the recent whistleblower testimony, which was the subject of the discussion you quoted, and likely something you haven’t read or considered. It’s difficult to be a GOP talking point when one of the whistleblowers is Democrat.

I’ve already summarized the revelations.

• Hunter linked daddy to Chinese deal in threat to business partner.
• Joe Biden showed up at business meetings with Hunter and his Chinese partners.
• The FBI authenticated Hunter Biden's laptop almost a year before we knew it existed and found no evidence of misinformation. Former intel officials come out and say it’s misinformation before the election.
• Hunter deducted hooker and sex club payments from his taxes
• The investigation into Hunter Biden had started due to a foreign porn website back in the 2018, and of course all of this was hidden from the public, unlike anti-Trump leaks.
• Prosecutors wanted to charge Hunter with felonies, but all he got was misdemeanors.
• Biden’s Department of Justice worked to block the investigation.
• Agents wanted to search Biden family homes but were told the optics would be too bad.
• IRS wanted search warrant for Hunter’s storage locker but a Biden-appointed prosecutor tipped off his lawyers.

That criminal now flies around on Air Force one and stays at camp David.

Did anyone in Trump’s sphere get the same treatment from Trump’s DOJ? Not that I remember. I remember raids and spying and selective leaks and jail.

Wouldn't you rather DeSantis be the nominee? He's ideologically on the far right, and doesn't have any of the baggage Trump has.

No thanks.

Hunter linked daddy to Chinese deal in threat to business partner.
Joe Biden showed up at business meetings with Hunter and his Chinese partners.
The FBI authenticated Hunter Biden's laptop almost a year before we knew it existed and found no evidence of misinformation. Former intel officials come out and say it’s misinformation before the election. — NOS4A2

Mischaracterization. The former intel officials did not say it was misinformation. Here's a quote from the letter:

We want to emphasize that we do not know if the emails, provided to the New York Post by
President Trump’s personal attorney Rudy Giuliani, are genuine or not and that we do not have
evidence of Russian involvement -- just that our experience makes us deeply suspicious that the
Russian government played a significant role in this case.

Considering the circumstances, it was a reasonable comment. Rudy G. (a man of questionable veracity, who also brought forward the false allegation from Viktor Shokin that Joe got him fired to halt the Burisma investigation) brought the laptop image to the NY Post (an ultra-partisan newspaper), and it wasn't shared with any other sources. Plus, it's firmly established that Russia had planted misinformation in the 2016 election - so it wasn't a wild leap to think it MIGHT be misinformation, given what we knew.

Hunter deducted hooker and sex club payments from his taxes
The investigation into Hunter Biden had started due to a foreign porn website back in the 2018, and of course all of this was hidden from the public, unlike anti-Trump leaks.

"Hidden"? It's policy to keep investigations private, unless and until an indictment is made. You complain of "anti-Trump" leaks, and yet everything we know about the Hunter investigation is a product of leaks.

Prosecutors wanted to charge Hunter with felonies, but all he got was misdemeanors.
Biden’s Department of Justice worked to block the investigation.
Agents wanted to search Biden family homes but were told the optics would be too bad.
IRS wanted search warrant for Hunter’s storage locker but a Biden-appointed prosecutor tipped off his lawyers.

As you know, a Trump appointed prosecutor (Weiss) was given free rein to handle Hunter's investigation and worked the plea deal with Hunter's attorneys. Plea deals are common. I have read the IRS Whistleblower's testimony, and it means one of three things: 1) Weiss and Garland have both lied; 2) the whistleblower lied; 3) the whistleblower misunderstood something that was said.

I absolutely want the whistleblower's allegation investigated to find the truth. But you've obviously already made up your mind. I'll note that there's been no evidence of Joe Biden's involvement. Joe promised to keep the DOJ independent, and there's no evidence he's interfered (contrast this with Trump's frequent pressure on Jeff Sessions & Bill Barr.).

Agents wanted to search Biden family homes but were told the optics would be too bad.
IRS wanted search warrant for Hunter’s storage locker but a Biden-appointed prosecutor tipped off his lawyers. — NOS4A2

This is according to the whistleblowers, and it absolutely should be investigated. But bear in mind, this occurred when Trump was President in June 2020. The DOJ has a policy of standing down on matters that are relevant during an election during the 3 months prior to the election. The controversy seems to surround the fact that this was a couple months prior to the official "freeze". Were they, perhaps, exercising extra caution to avoid an appearance of partisanship - as when Obama failed to make a fuss in 2016 about Russia's campaign assistance for Trump? (see: this). Given Trump's public interference with DOJ, a bit of extra caution might have been in his best interests. But again- it needs to be investigated, rather than jump to conclusions in any either direction. An allegation isn't proof; at worst, it points to a need to investigate.

The double standards are between those who oppose the deep state and those who do not. — NOS4A2

So you're a conspiracy theorist. That says it all. It provides context for your obvious confirmation bias.

Why?

I can understand why you’d doubt the claims and investigations of the House republicans, but why are you being a running dog for the CIA? The entire purpose of the letter was to frame it as disinfo, to sew the seeds of doubt in the public, and to provide Biden with a talking point should Trump bring up the laptop in the debate. This is the CIA and the Biden campaign influencing the election with misinformation, which I think you oppose. It worked. Even people here on this forum fell for it.

why are you being a running dog for the CIA? The entire purpose of the letter was to frame it as disinfo, to sew the seeds of doubt in the public, and to provide Biden with a talking point should Trump bring up the laptop in the debate. — NOS4A2

You're treating a distorted partisan narrative as established fact. No signatories of the letter were in the CIA at the time of signing. They could only be guilty of disinformation if they knew the laptop was legitimate, but I've seen no evidence that any of them (or Blinkin) actually knew the laptop data was legitimate. It does makes perfect sense for the campaign to want to minimize attention to the distraction - that's the nature of political campaigns.But your partisan outrage leads you to jump to the conclusion they lied, and that this constitutes cheating, and then criticize me for failing to do the same.

You also exaggerate what the letter said - I quoted it in my last post. They wrote that THEY DIDN'T KNOW if it was genuine, and given the context (which I described- and you are free to rebut), how COULD they know? And what exactly was the impact? It didn't stop Trump from making exaggerated claims about it. Trump lost because people voted against him. Do you seriously believe they wouldn't have voted against Trump if they knew the laptop was legit? Now that we know it's legit, and we know what's on it, why should it affect anyone's vote? It doesn't implicate Joe as anything but a concerned father (notwithstanding additional partisan distortion).

I try to form opinions by evaluating allegations and evidence similarly to the criminal justice system. An accusation is, at best, a good reason to investigate further (as I said about the whistleblower); it is not proof positive of guilt. I apply the same standard regardless of the person or party. You can't say the same.

Why do you prefer Trump over DeSantis?

There is no sense in quibbling on the topic.

“It is for all these reasons that we write to say that the arrival on the US polical scene of emails purportedly belonging to Vice President Biden’s son Hunter, much of it related to his serving on the Board of the Ukrainian gas company Burisma, has all the classic earmarks of a Russian information operation.”

The entire purpose of the letter was to say that it was Russian disinfo. It turns out they were wrong, and as you point out, they had no clue. These people worked for the intelligence community, including former directors of the CIA, and here they are spreading a conspiracy theory and misinformation before an election.

So then why the letter? According to a report, the man who drafted the letter, Michael Morrell, said what we already suspected it was for:

Contemporaneous emails show the organizers’ intent in drafting and releasing the statement: “[W]e think Trump will attack Biden on the issue at this week’s debate and we want to offer perspectives on this from Russia watchers and other seasoned experts,” and “we want to give the [Vice President] a talking point to use in response.”

Of course, Biden brought up the exact same talking point in the debate. I’m surprised you weren’t there telling everyone “it needs to be investigated, rather than jump to conclusions in any either direction.”

they are spreading a conspiracy theory and misinformation before an election. — NOS4A2

That wasn't an irrational conspiracy theory- the Russians did such things in 2016- and they merely noted this seemed consistent, while not denying it possibly being real. They were telling the truth as they saw it, so they did nothing morally or legally wrong. I already noted it was politically motivated, but you're going to have to explain what's wrong with that. I gather you don't like the fact it was an (unintentional) untruth. Shall I tally up the intentional untruths spread by Trump & his supporters in all 3 of the elections he's been
involved with?

I’m surprised you weren’t there telling everyone “it needs to be investigated, rather than jump to conclusions in any either direction.” — NOS4A2

When I read the letter in 2020, I focused on the sentences I quoted, and accepted that the laptop info might be true. I read the NY Post articles, deciphered the real info from the hyperbole and speculation, and concluded Hunter Biden is an asshole drug-addict, but also saw nothing implicating Joe. It was reported the FBI had the info and were investigating, and yes- I thought that appropriate.

You seem upset that a misleading letter was sent for political purposes. Why does it matter, given that the laptop doesn't implicate Joe?

According to Biden, Putin is losing in Iraq.

GOP had evidence disproving Biden bribery claims in 2019, top Democrat says

The top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee has released evidence that casts significant doubt on GOP claims that the FBI ignored evidence that President Joe Biden accepted a bribe from a Ukrainian energy mogul during his time as vice president.

In a letter to House Oversight Committee chair James Comer, Maryland Representative Jamie Raskin reminded his GOP counterpart that Congress has had evidence “that directly contradicts the allegations” levied against Mr Biden in an FBI form which Republicans have claimed to be proof of alleged corruption on the part of the president.

“As part of the impeachment inquiry against then-President Trump, Congress learned that ... the Ukrainian oligarch and the owner of Burisma, whom Republican Committee Members appear to have identified as the source of the allegations memorialized in the Form FD-1023, squarely rebutted these allegations in 2019,” Mr Raskin said.

Again something telling from Biden administration: today it was formally announced that Biden is visiting Finland. Yet it did ’t come as a surprise as days ago it was reported that the White House was inspecting the medical services in the hospitals in Helsinki.

Of course someone will argue that this is ”standard precautions” when any POTUS visits abroad, but I actually don’t think so. Didn’t happen with all earlier presidential visits. He is 80 years or so, hence there’s a real possibility that the guy will die or be totally unable to perform even the mandatory performance that a president needs to do in the next administration.

Yet the bigger question is, what on Earth is this love affair that the US voter has with very old people? What is wrong with people in their 50’s or 60’s?

If the answer is that they are the only people given, then why accept it?

‘Whistleblower’ who accused Bidens of corruption is charged with arms trafficking and violating Iran sanctions

A “whistleblower” who has repeatedly accused the Bidens of corruption has been charged by the Justice Department with arms trafficking, acting as a foreign agent for China and violating Iran sanctions.

Gal Luft, who is a citizen of both the United States and Israel, is accused of paying a former adviser to Donald Trump on behalf of principals in China in 2016 without registering as a foreign agent.

Prosecutors say that Mr Luft pushed the former government employee, who is not named, to push policies that were favourable to China.

They also allege that he set up meetings between officials of Iran and a Chinese energy company to discuss oil deals, which would violate US sanctions.

They also alleged that Mr Luft “conspired with others and attempted to broker illicit arms transactions with, among others, certain Chinese individuals and entities” by working as a middleman to find both buyers and sellers for “certain weapons and other materials” in violation of the US Arms Control Act.

Clearly this is just Biden getting revenge.

I'm really curious to see how that story plays out. Though in situations like this, if this guy does end up being found guilty, there will always be that conspiracy theory that he wasn't really.