Some of the materialists here get all huffy when you ask them if insects are conscious. — RogueAI

Not "insects" per se, but entities without nervous systems (e.g. stars, rocks, cells, atoms).

Of-bloody-course insects are conscious! How else would they be able to find food, shelter and mates - not to mention Mexico. An even more fundamental question is: if they were unconscious, what would impel them to?

That's rather interesting. But any slugs found eating my bean plants are still going in the salt bucket. Don't say I didn't warn you!

It makes sense. They have a body, sense organs, digestion. But it would be silly to say that such dissimilar bodies would result in a similar consciousness.

But any slugs found eating my bean plants are still going in the salt bucket. — unenlightened

Can't think of a more sadistic way to dispose of them?

Some of the materialists here get all huffy when you ask them if insects are conscious — RogueAI

Go see Naked Lunch and you will come away with a new respect for insects. :cool:

But it would be silly to say that such dissimilar bodies would result in a similar consciousness. — NOS4A2

The differences are more superficial than the similarities.

Nothing that originates and evolves on this planet, on this same 'tree of life' is entirely dissimilar.
Consider
biochemistry,
defining characteristics
basic requirements,
symmetry,
and motivation

Would this article have been published 50 years ago by a reputable science magazine?

The differences are more superficial than the similarities. — Vera Mont

Honeybee brains have ~960,000 neurons.
Human brains have ~100,000,000,000 neurons.
That does not seem like a superficial difference to me.

Why does the amount of neurons matter? If consciousness is an emergent property, shouldn't it emerge when there are a million neurons present?

Why does the amount of neurons matter? If consciousness is an emergent property, shouldn't it emerge when there are a million neurons present? — RogueAI

Neuron count plays a role in determining how much information processing capability a brain has, although synapse count would likely be a better indicator. See here.

Are you a computationalist? And again, the same question: why is a huge amount of computations necessary for consciousness? A system of a million neurons does a lot of computations. Why isn't it conscious? What amount of computations is required?

Bear in mind that a lot of our 100 billion neurons are tightly focused on running us meat machines, not in thinking or generating consciousness, whatever that is. C. elegans (a nematode) has exactly 959 somatic cells of which 302 are neurons. Not a lot with which to generate consciousness, on top of running the tiny piece of meat.

A bumblebee clocks in with a million neurons. If 302 neurons can run a nematode, maybe a million are enough to run a bumblebee with a little left over for consciousness. A cockroach also has a million neurons.

It seems to me that consciousness requires a number of neurons well above the number needed to keep the animal alive. I don't think C. elegans has enough neurons; a bumblebee, on the other hand, can learn to do a few things not related to life support -- like "play" a very simple game. On up the ladder re many animals with billions of brain cells. A dog has 530 million cortical neurons--gray matter. Humans have about 16 billion cortical (gray matter) cells.

It seems like Fido has a better chance at consciousness than the cockroach or bumblebee had before you stepped on them.

Why would anyone get huffy over that? Makes perfect sense.

It seems to me that consciousness requires a number of neurons well above the number needed to keep the animal alive. — BC

Why? Isn't that like saying you need a lot of hydrogen and oxygen before you get liquid water to emerge?

That does not seem like a superficial difference to me. — wonderer1

Quantity is not quality. We also have bigger kidneys and absolutely enormous intestines, but they don't seem to make our waste elimination any more efficient than a honeybee's. They live about six weeks, don't mate, don't drive, don't have to deal with banks, lawyers, landlords or politics - so, how much memory storage do they need? However, they can find and identify foods that are good for them, find their way home and lead others to the food, store enough for winter and take excellent care of their children.
How many big-brains can claim as much?

I'm quite gratified to see scientists starting to abandon the anthropotistic attitude that's so severely retarded ecological studies. Gratified on one hand that they're catching on - on the other, chagrined that they're catching on too late.

No it's not like H & O. I'm thinking that consciousness, or sentience, isn't supported by clusters of nerves that are exclusively concerned with the operation of the animal. Walking, flying, vision, vibration detection, catching prey, avoiding predators, and so forth are managed by specific neural clusters. This is true, to some extent, in our brains too. Presumably, conscious, sentient thought activity is not handled by any and all cells. Rather, mental functions originate in certain areas.

Did you see Chalmers won a bet on consciousness?

Go see Naked Lunch — jgill

All I know is that it was the novel in which there was a metal dildo called Steely Dan which then provided the name for the well-known musical ensemble (and my personal all-time favourite band).

What bet?

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-02120-8

:party:

No, I missed that. What did he win? (What was his wager?)

I posted a link a couple posts above you.

Got it, Maybe 2053?

Hey, I'll be a hundred. Better look after my health if I want to see it.

It's an interesting article. I have no trouble accepting the idea that insects are sentient, although I'm dubious about whether the experience of pain would be the same as the human's (after all, what would it be like to be a bee?) But overall, I'm forming the view that as organisms are all agents of greater or lesser degrees of intelligence, then the article is quite congenial.

:up:

Are you a Vonnegut fan?

what would it be like to be a bee? — Wayfarer

Life would be sweet.

At least you'd learn to dance.

And that would be a miracle!