That's right. A single populist election is all it takes. Sovereignty is no defence against that. And driving a country into the ground economically is a sure fire way to push in the direction of making that more likely. — Isaac
Negotiation is how we stop this God awful bloodbath. — Isaac
Yours was your only post for pages. — Isaac
No, it is not, it takes a bit more than that. — Jabberwock
at this particular time those under Russian influence have it worse than those without it, even if they are under the terrible boot of the EU. That is why Ukrainians are trying to get out. Possibly, EU might change into Russia in half a year and the other way round and that would turn out to be a mistake, but that does not seem to concern them that much. Maybe because the probability of that happening seems to be rather low. — Jabberwock
You say negotiation, others say appeasement. — unenlightened
even if you had been right in your facts, that is flimsy evidence on which to base an accusation of racism and xenophobia. — unenlightened
It might be nice to hear what you say, and why you might say it? — Isaac
OK, what? — Isaac
I don't see what any of that has to do with a war over sovereignty. As if war was the only way to decide on leaders... — Isaac
there have been no cases of well established democracies turning into full-blown autocracies in half a year. — Jabberwock
Sovereignty gives Ukrainians a chance to be not-Russia. Sure, they might have squander that chance, especially if the West abandons them, they can turn into an awful copy of Russia. Still, they would have that chance. On the other hand, at this time, giving up sovereignty to Russia practically deprives them of a chance to be a democratic, well-governed, prosperous country. Sovereignty for Ukrainians is a way to better their lives, not an end in itself. — Jabberwock
it is not always nice to hear what you say — unenlightened
I have prejudices and ignorance to spare. — unenlightened
Ukraine is not a well established democracy and Russia is not a full-blown autocracy. There are several independent measures of human development, in every single one Ukraine is not far from Russia. — Isaac
Is there some reason you're treating years of bloody war and destruction as if it were a minor additional consideration to weigh in? — Isaac
We can discuss the opinions, the viewpoints themselves quite easily. — ssu
I do not believe that the distinction between a full-blown autocracy and a full-blown kleptocracy is that important in case of Russia. The point is that Ukraine wants to be less than Russia. — Jabberwock
It is not my consideration to make, it is what Ukrainians have decided. — Jabberwock
So. The argument you were supposed to be countering was about how far Ukraine might be from Russian-style authoritarianism. The answer is, not far. The question wasn't about recent direction of travel — Isaac
Then why were you presenting an argument at all? It's a bit disingenuous to present an argument and then when your reasoning is challenged claim its not your decision anyway. — Isaac
What difference doesn't make to the argument that the Ukrainians have decided? If the Ukrainians decided to kill everyone of Russian descent would you have nothing to say on the matter because "it is what Ukrainians have decided"? — Isaac
Now the war is over one year old and much has happened then. That was my point. — ssu
what was the likelyhood of Russia to negotiate a peace when it was still wanting to denazify Ukraine, when it was still engaged in the battle of Kyiv and war enthusiasm was very high? — ssu
What would have been the peace deal then? — ssu
Russia was also declaring southeastern and northwestern parts of the Black Sea's international waters to be temporarily unsafe for navigation, it said, without giving details about the parts of the sea which would be affected.
Sovereignty for Ukraine is a way to steer away from Russian-style authoritarianism. — Jabberwock
Nobody else but them is able to decide whether it is worth the war and destruction, because they will suffer through it. — Jabberwock
it's likely this situation will be at a stalemate for a long while, with Ukraine harrying the enemy for small gains on the ground and Russia regularly destroying civilian targets with air-power. A glimmer of hope is that the Russian economy contracts so badly that even the poor brainwashed citizens of that country begin to chafe under the boot, although even that is a long way from open rebellion. — Wayfarer
Putin cannot be rewarded for his crimes. — Wayfarer
appeasing the dictator will only empower him to continue on his path of militarist aggression. — Wayfarer
I don't for one minute expect a democratic revolution in Russia — Wayfarer
Putin cannot afford to be seen retreating — Wayfarer
I just find it truly bizarre that in a world of democratic institutions who've successfully fought for years to expand the reach of Human Rights to some of the most difficult areas in the world, all of a sudden the only way we can think of to oppose aggression is with more aggression. — Isaac
War does not equal sovereignty. War equals massive indebtedness, economic collapse, and often an accompanying risk of increases in extremist politics, particularly nationalism. You read my quotes from Yuliya Yurchenko? If you're concerned about sovereignty and steering away from authoritarianism, the best route is one which promotes economic independence, equality, and respect for everyone in your community. War is just about the worst course of action. — Isaac
Nonsense. We're all just people. There are rich Ukrainians who'll not suffer a scratch from war and there are poor Yemenis who'll more likely suffer painfully slow deaths from hunger the longer it continues. There's powerful arms manufacturers and their investors who'll benefit from a protracted war, there's the Russian conscripts and their families. There's the children and grandchildren of the current Ukrainians who were never asked if they wanted their future sold out to Black Rock. and there's the rest of the world who might take umbrage at the prospect of being wiped of the face of the earth by the ensuing nuclear war.
I realise it's like rule one in your playbook (when cornered say it's up to the Ukrainians), but it's just isn't. — Isaac
Notwithstanding that, the question is about whether we continue to supply weapons, whether we write off debt, whether we push for negotiations (or block them), whether we offer Russia elements it wants (elements to do with us, not Ukraine). These are all decisions for Western powers (and so presumably Western electorates) to make. Why are we obliged to simply follow the Ukrainians on any of those decisions? — Isaac
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