Oh, cool. Glad you knew that all along.

So you also know that the “coming ice age” you mentioned in your list of doom hysteria — not-so-subtly implying that climate change is (could be?) hysteria as well — is utter bullshit? Basically taken from one Newsweek article that did not once suggest this was a consensus among scientists anywhere CLOSE to AGW?

I’m sure you know that too.

I remember a meteorologist I knew was asked by a reporter that as he believed that a new ice age was coming and then there global warming (called that then), wouldn't they counter each other? His response: New ice age comes in the next 50 000 years, climate change happening now.

But that was decades ago.

So you have literally never known a world that didn't have doom hanging over it. Does that mean you had to get comfortable with doom? How did you deal with that? — frank

Yes, I think that there has always been some level of doom hanging around for most of my life (I am now in my 60's). You don't really ever get totally comfortable with doom (because there is always a small chance that it might happen). My normal strategy is to ignore it or pretend that it doesn't exist. This explains why I was initially very skeptical about global warming.

fear of the impending ice age
— Agree to Disagree

Right. I've read about that, but you lived through it?

Was acid rain abd ozone depletion also part of it? I read that there was overlap with those things and an amplified greenhouse effect. Same scientists? — frank

Yes, I lived through the fear of an impending ice age. I also lived through the fear of acid rain and the fear of ozone depletion. My memory is good but these doom issues were somewhere between 30 and 45 years ago. My recollection of the timing of the different issues is a bit fuzzy.

I don't know if it was the same scientists.

Yes, I think that there has always been some level of doom hanging around for most of my life (I am now in my 60's). You don't really ever get totally comfortable with doom (because there is always a small chance that it might happen). My normal strategy is to ignore it or pretend that it doesn't exist. This explains why I was initially very skeptical about global warming. — Agree to Disagree

I'm guessing you'd have to buffer all that doom somehow: keep it at arms length to plan for your own future.

Yes, I lived through the fear of an impending ice age. — Agree to Disagree

I was reading some science fiction short stories and there was one where these people are struggling to survive the onset of an ice age, but then the protagonist wakes up and global warming is what's really happening. It was supposed to be about the psychological whiplash related to ice-age to global-warming news.

His response: New ice age comes in the next 50 000 years, climate change happening now.

But that was decades ago. — ssu

Right. Yet that won’t stop ignoramuses from discussing it at length. “Scientists were screaming we were all gonna freeze to death in 10 years!”

It’d be funny if it weren’t so pathetic— and dangerous.

They contribute a good deal to global warming. Try learning about the subject. — Mikie

Cows produce methane and CO2. But they don't contribute much to global warming.

Read the link that I gave earlier about the Biogenic Carbon Cycle.

Most people do think that cattle farming is a significant contributor to greenhouse gas emissions. But most people don't understand the Biogenic Carbon Cycle. If you are interested there is a very good article here:
https://www.goodmeat.com.au/environmental-sustainability/biogenic-carbon-cycle — Agree to Disagree

Read the link that I gave earlier about the Biogenic Carbon Cycle. — Agree to Disagree

So you literally quote from a MEAT COMPANY. No conflict of interest there, I’m sure.

Good lord.

Right. Yet that won’t stop ignoramuses from discussing it at length. “Scientists were screaming we were all gonna freeze to death in 10 years!”

It’d be funny if it weren’t so pathetic— and dangerous. — Mikie

Here is a graph from the NASA webpage:
https://climate.nasa.gov/news/3139/six-questions-to-help-you-understand-the-6th-warmest-year-on-record

It shows a graph of the temperature anomaly versus the year for a number of temperature series (NASA Gistemp, HadcrutV5, NOAA, and Berkeley Earth). They all agree with each other.

Note the sudden change in temperature trend at about 1940. It changed suddenly from an increasing temperature trend to a decreasing temperature trend. The decreasing temperature trend went from about 1940 to about 1970 or 1975 (a 30 to 35 year trend). Scientists raised the issue of a possible pending ice age around about the mid 70's.

In a previous post I said that I remember the scare being in 1976 (my first year at university).

So you literally quote from a MEAT COMPANY. No conflict of interest there, I’m sure. — Mikie

Why don't you comment on what they say, rather than who they are?

Scientists raised the issue of a possible pending ice age around about the mid 70's.

In a previous post I said that I remember the scare being in 1976 (my first year at university). — Agree to Disagree

I think that's because it was in the 1970s that historic geography took off. In the early 20th Century, they thought there had only been four ice ages based on what they saw in rock formations. By the 1970s they started understanding continental drift and seeing much further back. It was from analyzing the graphs of temperature undulations that they reasoned that an ice age was coming soon. They still didn't know what causes ice ages, though, so there was a lot of uncertainty.

Climatology has exploded since then.

I was reading some science fiction short stories and there was one where these people are struggling to survive the onset of an ice age, but then the protagonist wakes up and global warming is what's really happening. It was supposed to be about the psychological whiplash related to ice-age to global-warming news. — frank

You may be thinking about this episode of Twilight Zone

You may be thinking about this episode of Twilight Zone — EricH

Ha! Same plot. But mine was definitely in an anthology of old science fiction stories.

Scientists raised the issue of a possible pending ice age around about the mid 70's. — Agree to Disagree

Care you cite some articles?

Most scientists, even back then, were far more concerned about global warming — the effects of which were known and understood decades prior.

The consensus was hardly suggesting an ice age was imminent. There was speculation, among some scientists, about the cooling effect of aerosols. That’s all it was.

Odd that you don’t remember the warnings about global warming from back then. Talk about selective memory.

There was speculation, among some scientists, about the cooling effect of aerosols. — Mikie

It wasn't just aerosols, but that's beside his point, which was that he has doomsday fatigue from a lifetime of hearing about the end of the world.

That should be of interest to anyone who cares about the environment and wants to understand how people react to news of threatening conditions.

Why don't you comment on what they say, rather than who they are? — Agree to Disagree

Because it’s cherry picked nonsense, of the Bjorn Lomborg variety.

—

So it’s just worth summarizing/repeating: Climate change is happening, and rapidly. We’re the cause. It’s an existential threat. The solutions are available; the obstacles are time and political will.

Delivery vans in Pittsburgh. Buses in Milwaukee. Cranes loading freight at the Port of Los Angeles. Every municipal building in Houston. All are powered by electricity derived from the sun, wind or other sources of clean energy.

Across the country, a profound shift is taking place that is nearly invisible to most Americans. The nation that burned coal, oil and gas for more than a century to become the richest economy on the planet, as well as historically the most polluting, is rapidly shifting away from fossil fuels.

A similar energy transition is already well underway in Europe and elsewhere. But the United States is catching up, and globally, change is happening at a pace that is surprising even the experts who track it closely.

Wind and solar power are breaking records, and renewables are now expected to overtake coal by 2025 as the world’s largest source of electricity. Automakers have made electric vehicles central to their business strategies and are openly talking about an expiration date on the internal combustion engine. Heating, cooling, cooking and some manufacturing are going electric. — The Clean Energy Future Is Arriving Faster Than You Think, NY Times

And in spite of all of the concerted efforts to block it.

Odd that you don’t remember the warnings about global warming from back then. Talk about selective memory — Mikie

I'll answer this. There were so many other things happening during the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s, it must have slipped right past me. I do remember the oil embargo. Maybe you can pull up some of those articles from those eras, warning of global warming. I'm curious.

I don't think it was confirmed until they had super computers to run the models on.

Maybe you can pull up some of those articles from those eras, warning of global warming. I'm curious. — jgill

I did mention a speech by Margeret Thatcher to the UN in 1989, warning of the looming issue of greenhouse gases, as it was mainly called then. NASA scientist James Hansen provided an urgent warning to the US Senate in 1988, which largely went unheeded.

I'll answer this. There were so many other things happening during the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s, it must have slipped right past me. I do remember the oil embargo. Maybe you can pull up some of those articles from those eras, warning of global warming. I'm curious. — jgill

Back then we experienced with our unbelieving eyes the first dog in space, the exploration of the planets, and man leaving footprints on the Moon. Yet the exploration of the oceans and of Earth beneath our feet is still incomplete to this day.

Much of what we think we know of past ice ages comes from three deep ice core samples drilled out of the Greenland ice sheet and the Antarctic ice cap. This was done to explore the geological and biological archeology of Earth, including the timescale of past ice ages.

What was seen is shocking indeed. According to the record, we appear to be living in a relatively short-period warming of a long-lasting ice age. As long as there are ice caps over the poles we could claim to be in an ice age. Or not.

The anxiety that

Scientists raised the issue of a possible pending ice age around about the mid 70's. — Agree to Disagree

recalls was quite real back then. The fear was that our balmy existence could quickly, say in a decade, revert back to its normal frozen ways except for wide swath of equatorial belt.

I read this too. Front page of the Sunday Times.

It’s a little misleading, I think. Emissions are still rising, oil drilling projects are still being done, transmission lines aren’t being built, solar and wind farms are being blocked or delayed— to say nothing about the Republicans grotesque game plan to reverse every regulation and incentive on the books and further accelerate fossil fuel use

That being said— this article does highlight some areas of hope.

Maybe you can pull up some of those articles from those eras, warning of global warming. I'm curious. — jgill

Here’s a reference:

But Thomas Peterson of the National Climatic Data Center surveyed dozens of peer-reviewed scientific articles from 1965 to 1979 and found that only seven supported global cooling, while 44 predicted warming. Peterson says 20 others were neutral in their assessments of climate trends.

The study reports, "There was no scientific consensus in the 1970s that the Earth was headed into an imminent ice age.

"A review of the literature suggests that, to the contrary, greenhouse warming even then dominated scientists' thinking about the most important forces shaping Earth's climate on human time scales."

"I was surprised that global warming was so dominant in the peer-reviewed literature of the time," says Peterson, who was also a contributor to the United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change 2007 report.

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Technology/story?id=4335191&page=1

Even Exxon knew about climate change as early as 1977– from their own scientists.

Also worth googling Syukuro Manabe. His research is from the 60s. He’s also a Nobel prize winner.

trial in Montana going on right now. — Mikie

Posted this about two months ago.

Well, the result is in:

Judge Rules in Favor of Montana Youths in a Landmark Climate Case

A bit of good news. Figured I’d share.

Yes, read that! I was about to post it. Here's some of the key text:

The court determined that a provision in the Montana Environmental Policy Act has harmed the state’s environment and the young plaintiffs by preventing Montana from considering the climate impacts of energy projects. The provision is accordingly unconstitutional, the court said.

“This is a huge win for Montana, for youth, for democracy and for our climate,” said Julia Olson, the executive director of Our Children’s Trust, which brought the case. “More rulings like this will certainly come.”

The sweeping win, one of the strongest decisions on climate change ever issued by a court, could energize the environmental movement and usher in a wave of cases aimed at advancing action on climate change, experts say.

The ruling — which invalidates the provision blocking climate considerations — also represents a rare victory for climate activists who have tried to use the courts to push back against government policies and industrial activities they say are harming the planet. In this case, it involved 16 young Montanans, ranging in age from 5 to 22, who brought the nation’s first constitutional and first youth-led climate lawsuit to go to trial. Those youths are elated by the decision, according to Our Children’s Trust.

Ought to be a major stumbling block for Republican efforts to wind back climate change amelioration efforts in the very unlikely event that they win office.

Yes, read that! I was about to post it. Here's some of the key text: — Quixodian

Here are the parts of this news story that stand out to me:

The Montana attorney general’s office said the state would appeal, which would send the case to the state Supreme Court.

“This ruling is absurd, but not surprising from a judge who let the plaintiffs’ attorneys put on a weeklong taxpayer-funded publicity stunt that was supposed to be a trial, ...”

The government, which was given one week to present its defense, rested after just one day and did not call its main expert witness, surprising many legal experts.

Why do you think the government rested after just one day and did not call its main expert witness ???

As an older person (in my 60's) why should I take personal responsibility for climate change? Young people seem to blame everyone except themselves (e.g. oil companies and older people). They refuse to take responsibility for their own carbon footprint and blame it all on the oil companies.

This is your chance to convince me that I should personally do something about climate change. Or you can ask me questions. Insulting me makes me less likely to do anything about climate change.

Insulting me makes me less likely to do anything about climate change. — Agree to Disagree

Would it be insulting to suggest that this seems a petulant response? None of this is a personal matter. How you feel about it is irrelevant, and whether 'young people blame others' is also irrelevant. Human induced climate change is a clear and present danger, and action needs to be taken to stop it. Hopefully this thread can continue to highlight more or less successul attempts to do that, and to discuss the issues involved in ameliorating climate change.

Young people seem to blame everyone except themselves (e.g. oil companies and older people). They refuse to take responsibility for their own carbon footprint and blame it all on the oil companies. — Agree to Disagree

lol. "Carbon footprint."

Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed.

Insulting me makes me less likely to do anything about climate change. — Agree to Disagree

You mean the blatant climate denier who pretends to care/know anything about the subject -- and repeatedly says that nothing can be done about it -- won't do anything if he's insulted?! Oh no!

Here are the parts of this news story that stand out to me: — Agree to Disagree

As you go on to quote the ultra right-wing government officials. That just happens to "stand out" to you. How predictably pathetic.

Go shill for the oil companies somewhere else.

lol. "Carbon footprint."

Big oil coined ‘carbon footprints’ to blame us for their greed. — Mikie

So Big Oil invented the term "carbon footprint" to try to trick me into taking personal responsibility for the amount of CO2 that I produce.

Thank you for "educating" me. Now I know that I don't need to take personal responsibility for the amount of CO2 that I produce. I can produce any amount of CO2 and not feel guilty about it. It is Big Oil's fault, not mine.

It is Big Oil's fault, not mine. — Agree to Disagree

Correct.

Now go shill for oil companies elsewhere— and take your climate denial with you.

British Petroleum, the second largest non-state owned oil company in the world, with 18,700 gas and service stations worldwide, hired the public relations professionals Ogilvy & Mather to promote the slant that climate change is not the fault of an oil giant, but that of individuals. It’s here that British Petroleum, or BP, first promoted and soon successfully popularized the term “carbon footprint” in the early aughts. The company unveiled its “carbon footprint calculator” in 2004 so one could assess how their normal daily life – going to work, buying food, and (gasp) traveling – is largely responsible for heating the globe.

Underlying this is a conflict in how we imagine ourselves, as consumers or as citizens. Consumers define themselves by what they buy, own, watch – or don’t. Citizens see themselves as part of civil society, as actors in the political system (and by citizen I don’t mean people who hold citizenship status, but those who participate, as noncitizens often do quite powerfully). Too, even personal virtue is made more or less possible by the systems that surround us. If you have solar panels on your roof, it’s because there’s a market and manufacturers for solar and installers and maybe an arrangement with your power company to compensate you for energy you’re putting into the grid.

It is Big Oil's fault, not mine.
— Agree to Disagree

Correct. — Mikie

Well that was easy @Agree to Disagree

What's your next trick?