In Socrates’s eighteenth year, Sophroniscus presented him to the deme in a ceremony called dokimasia. He was there examined and entered onto the citizens’ roll, making him eligible—subject to age or class restrictions—for the many tasks of government determined by lot or required of all citizens, beginning with two years of compulsory training in the Athenian militia. In an important sense, the dokimasia marked a young man’s allegiance to the laws of Athens. — Socrates - SEP
I read Socrates taking up music during his confinement as one way to keep alive when deprived of his preferred 'medium.' — Paine
Socrates, as portrayed by Nietzsche, is a figure who is very different to Dionysus. During most of his life Socrates was the personification of a theoretical man (Nietzsche, 1967-1977, Vol. 1 p 98). He practiced neither music, nor poetry, nor did he have a high opinion of either. Only when he was in his death cell did he start to discover his musical side. Nietzsche attributes great importance to this observation (Nietzsche, 1967-1977, Vol. 1 p 92-96). From this brief description alone we can see that Nietzsche’s Socrates is very much influenced by Plato’s, for it was in Plato’s Phaedo that this story of Socrates was told Plato (Phaedo 60c-61d). However, it will soon be clear that Nietzsche’s Socrates is far from identical with Plato’s. Still it is much closer to Plato’s than it is to Xenophon’s or Aristophane’s Socrates who are the other major literary versions of Socrates.
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Since Socrates never appreciated tragedy, i.e. music and poetry, during most of his life, and as he only went to the theatre when the plays of the logical poet Euripides were performed, it was strange that in his death cell Socrates suddenly devoted himself to music and poetry.
According to Nietzsche, then an important part of Socrates character, which he normally oppressed, was set free (Nietzsche, 1967-1977, Vol. 1 p 92-96). — Socrates - Minerva
Interesting. I didn't know of this 'music-playing' Socrates. — Amity
since philosophy is the greatest music.” (61a)
make music in the popular sense of the word.
took whatever stories were to hand, the fables of Aesop which I know, and turned the first ones I came upon into verse.
The Greek term νόμος, from which we get the term 'norm', means custom, law, and also song (νόμος).
Socrates sings the song of the law. — Fooloso4
(77e)What you should do is to sing him incantations each day until you sing [charm] away his fears.
Then Agathon, who was reclining alone on the last couch, said, “Come here, Socrates, and recline beside me so that, through contact with you, I may enjoy 175D that piece of wisdom that came to you in the porch. Of course you found it and you have it, for you would not have come away without it.”
Socrates then sat down and said, “It would be nice, Agathon, if wisdom were the sort of thing that flowed between us, from the fuller to the emptier once we were in contact with one another, just as water in cups flows through wool from the fuller to the emptier one. Yes, if wisdom 175E is like this too, then I greatly prize my position alongside you, for I believe I will be filled with a copious beautiful wisdom by your side. For my wisdom would be ordinary, even as questionable as a dream, while yours would be resplendent and would hold great promise, young as you are; and this shone forth mightily from you, just the other day, and was put on display before the eyes of more than thirty thousand Greeks.”
“Socrates, you are being contemptuous!” said Agathon. “Yet in due course, you and I shall submit these matters to judgement on the issue of wisdom, resorting to Dionysus[10] as our judge. For the moment, you should turn your attention to your supper.” — Symposium, 175c, translated by Horan
Socrates' own music consists of arguments, but that will not do for the many who need to be charmed. — Fooloso4
Socrates says he has had this dream before and had always understood it to mean doing what he is always doing:
since philosophy is the greatest music.” (61a)
Now he thinks the dream meant:
make music in the popular sense of the word.
So he:
took whatever stories were to hand, the fables of Aesop which I know, and turned the first ones I came upon into verse.
Taking whatever stories that were at hand suggests that the content of music in the popular sense did not much matter. — Fooloso4
Soc: Well, Crito, may it be for the best. If this pleases the gods, so be it. However, I do not think it will be here today.
Crito: 44A What is your evidence for that?
Soc: I’ll tell you. Presumably I am to die the day after the ship arrives.
Crito: That is what the authorities say, in any case.
Soc: Well, I do not think it will be here today, but tomorrow. My evidence is a dream I had a little earlier, during the night, perhaps when you decided not to wake me.
Crito: What was the dream?
Soc: I thought that a noble and beautiful 44B woman wearing a white robe approached me, called out and said: Socrates, on the third day thou shalt reach fertile Phthia.[3]
Crito: What a strange dream, Socrates.
Soc: Well now, Crito, it seems clear enough to me anyway — Horan's Crito
Then Cebes took this up and said, “By Zeus, it is just as well you jogged my memory, Socrates. A number of people have been asking me about your compositions, 60D the setting of Aesop’s fables to verse and the hymn to Apollo. — Horan's translation - Phaedo
In the Index to my old collection of the Dialogues, there are over a hundred references to Homer, thirteen to Aeschylus, fourteen to Pindar, forty-seven to Hesiod, four to Sophocles, and I am sure I have left out others. There are the countless rituals and festivals Socrates takes part in. And there is the beginning of the Republic where Socrates makes an aesthetic judgement upon the procession he came to witness. The guy was no shut in nor likely to plug his ears when nearing the Sirens. — Paine
No. I plead ignorance. Perhaps you can persuade me. — Fooloso4
Socrates' own music consists of arguments, but that will not do for the many who need to be charmed.
— Fooloso4
Without addressing the question of how much Socrates enjoyed the arts of the "many" (or the arguments in the Sorgner essay), I will observe Socrates is a character in Plato's plays. They are obviously more than plays, consisting of fixed characters being expressed through actors on a stage. Nonetheless, they are also artistic compositions. — Paine
I will observe Socrates is a character in Plato's plays.
— Paine
The first thing that comes to mind in making that comparison is that unlike the works of the playwrights the dialogues do not contain a chorus. — Fooloso4
Are you sure about that?
What about the repeated refrains of the laws... — Amity
I see that they are alike in so far as many voices sing as one, but my impression is that the chorus stands apart and is not a participant that speaks to the characters. — Fooloso4
Aristotle stated in his Poetics:
The chorus too must be regarded as one of the actors. It must be part of the whole and share in the action, not as in Euripides but as in Sophocles.
In Aeschylus' The Eumenides, however, the chorus takes the part of a host of avenging Furies.
The chorus had to work in unison to help explain the play as there were only one to three actors on stage who were already playing several parts each.
Aristophanes uses the chorus of the elderly for varying reasons within his comedies. For example, the chorus of the elderly within The Wasps plays both a comedic role and also serves as a political counterfoil to the young, cosmopolitans of Athens. — Greek chorus - wiki
As in his other early plays, Aristophanes satirizes the Athenian general and demagogue Cleon. He also ridicules the law courts, one of the institutions that provided Cleon his power — The Wasps - wiki
I thought the chorus did not speak directly to the actors.
There is another difference. The laws are not a separate character or entity, but Socrates speaking on behalf of the laws. — Fooloso4
It is an interesting question to what extent the voice of the law in the Crito differ from that of the law itself. — Fooloso4
The laws (θεσμοί – thesmoi) that [Draco] laid were the first written constitution of Athens. So that no one would be unaware of them, they were posted on wooden tablets (ἄξονες – axones), where they were preserved for almost two centuries on steles of the shape of four-sided pyramids (κύρβεις – kyrbeis).[8] The tablets were called axones, perhaps because they could be pivoted along the pyramid's axis to read any side.[9][10]
The constitution featured several major innovations:
Instead of oral laws known to a special class, arbitrarily applied and interpreted, all laws were written, thus being made known to all literate citizens (who could appeal to the Areopagus for injustices): "the constitution formed under Draco, when the first code of laws was drawn up". (Aristotle: Athenian Constitution, Part 5, Section 41)
The laws distinguish between murder and involuntary homicide, a novel concept at that time.[11] — Draco - wiki
These are the words I seem to be hearing, just as the frenzied dancers seem to be hearing the pipes, and the very sound of these words is reverberating within me, and makes me incapable of hearing anything else. — Horan's translation
The chorus too must be regarded as one of the actors. It must be part of the whole and share in the action, not as in Euripides but as in Sophocles. — Greek chorus - wiki
The chorus is a 'refrain' of the song - the much-repeated comments and themes.
Justice, harm and retribution. Morality of the contract. The main theme of obedience to law. — Amity
But does the law overstate its case?
— Fooloso4
I'm not really interested in sorting out who's right or wrong here. It's just opposing views orbiting the idea of normativity. — frank
I admire Thomas Paine, as my forum handle suggests. His arguments for democracy are in tune with the problem of absolute power as described in Statesman.I wonder if our present condition is one where we cannot distinguish the regimes so clearly. Maybe the tyrannical, the oligarchs, and the dynamic of unfortunate public opinion coexist simultaneously. — Paine
Contrary to the way Socrates frames it, the city in question is not just "any city". It is one whose laws are said to be enacted justly. The problem, however, is not simply justice but the force needed to prevent the law from being overthrown. Although Socrates talks as if it is a matter of persuasion, of convincing the city, that too would be a:
subversion of the law wherebyjudgements, once delivered, stand supreme.
Philosophy poses a threat to the city. Socrates is silenced by force. The law proclaims that he does not stand on an equal footing with the law. To convince them would require doing the very thing they want to prevent him from doing, that is, philosophizing. — Fooloso4
Anyone who disobeys commits a 3-fold injustice: he disobeys us, we who nurtured him; and having agreed to obey us, he neither obeys us, nor persuades us otherwise if we are not acting aright, even though we lay 52A the options before him and do not issue rough commands to do what we tell him. No, we offer two alternatives: either do as we say, or persuade us otherwise. But he does neither of these.' — Horan
It is the opinion of the men of Athens that Socrates is doing harm to the young people. His disobedience suggests that he thinks that whatever harm and injustice to the city and its laws his disobedience may cause, the suppression of philosophy is a greater harm. — Fooloso4
The problem is crystallised by a chat with John Gummer, Lord Deben. He chaired the government’s Climate Change Committee and co-authored a report that slammed Britain’s green initiatives as dangerously inadequate: “We should be on a war footing,” he tells Packham, noting that a 1C rise in global temperatures is already causing mayhem, and we are headed for 2C or 3C. But when asked about radical protests, Gummer bristles, warning against “counter-productive” action and insisting, “We have to have the rule of law.” — Is it time to break the law? - The Guardian
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