Well, I agree with you about plants but the reproductive biological imperative in many animal species is more than just instinctive in some cases. Well, at least it seems that way to me. A mother or father elephant, for example does recognise their offspring for their entire life, no matter how long they have been apart 'an elephant never forgets.' Many animals have very similar biological imperatives to humans as humans are animals but I do agree with you that such is normally demonstrated to a lesser degree in the average non-human animal compared to the average human animal.First is something that's wrapped up in a biological imperative. such as being a parent. The plants and all the other animals can't contemplate these things. For them, there is no meaning of life in the way this thread is primarily focused on. Only a human would, or can, say a biological imperative is the meaning of their life. — Patterner
But what really strikes me is that humans are the only things in the universe that we are aware of that can choose to do things that aren't biological imperatives. I feel there's something... Difficult to find the right word. I think "human" might be it, although that doesn't convey the specific feeling that I can't seem to name. There's something appropriate in people doing things that only people can do. — Patterner
Some people have counterproductive thoughts. A lot of afflicted often hopeless people are afflicted by their circumstances. Their social/physical environment may be of low quality; bad housing, violence, not enough food, rats / roaches / bedbugs, dirt, poverty, chronic physical illnesses, isolation -- and more, all leaving the afflicted angry, hungry, lonely, fearful, frustrated -- very unhappy for months and years on end. What these afflicted people need are immediate and significant physical changes in their circumstances. They may be diagnosed as "depression" cases and they may well be depressed, but what they really need, and what will be curative, is a better life. — BC
Sounds about right to me.Or, sometimes living with someone who has a combination of intractable problems -- let's say a terminal physical illness and is maybe bi-polar, may stress a partner very severely until they are themselves dysfunctional -- depressed. In that case, the situation will resolve (the terminal illness will result in the partner's death. But sometimes people are in relationships that are chronically stressful, but to which both are committed. That too can lead to depression and the cure may well be separation. — BC
The question remains. If Niki is real and is as conflicted as the threads produced so far suggest.I don't want to diminish the importance of maintaining healthy thinking about one's choices, but sometimes circumstances have to change rather than coming up with new ideas. And yes, sometimes people are--for all practical purposes--STUCK in the situation they are in.
Maybe Wonoto is 'stuck'. — BC
Perhaps Corvus is correct and Nikki is just innocently posting philosophical human dilemmas on a philosophy site to help him/her/them complete a philosophy course. :halo: — universeness
I raise another question, which I think is related to the topic: What does it mean to be human? — JWW
To demonstrate that there is substance in the universe.What is the meaning of a rock? — Vera Mont
To provide food for birds, animals, and humans by assisting plant growth.What is the purpose of an earthworm? — Vera Mont
To indicate that the galaxy andromeda is moving towards the milky way.What is the significance of blue? — Vera Mont
Why are they not both of these?There are no answers, because they are not mere symbols that represent, stand for [mean] some thing or convey some idea:they are the actual thing or manifestation. — Vera Mont
I guess my point is merely noting that humans can choose meanings that are biological imperatives/things other living things do, or that are beyond what any other species can do. Since it's not a requirement that someone choose a meaning at all, it can't be said that one type is better, or more appropriate, than the other. I just thought it was worth noting. I don't know if it's something any philosopher has written at any length about.Are you simply saying, you are impressed by the size of the spectrum of potential 'meaning/purpose/cause,' that humans can manifest or are you saying that this is what overwhelms many people and makes them reduce it to the more simplistic biological imperatives or it results in negative pathologies such as chronic depression? — universeness
Can meaning not reflect utility? — universeness
Yes, imo, as they facilitated new combinatorials, such as rocky planets, moons, asteroids etc. — universeness
Did rocks have meaning for those billions of years when there were no hominids to make use of them? — Vera Mont
Told by 500 generations of prophets and philosophers that he is wanting, fallen short, fallen from a loftier position, and that the only way he can redeem himself is by dedicating his life to something greater than himself: a god, a liege lord, an empire, a noble cause, a brotherhood of warriors, monks or mobsters. His own little life is of no consequence: it is a conveyance merely, like a deed of sale or a summons, disposable once it's served purpose. — Vera Mont
A meaningful life does entail one is serving something greater than oneself, but that does not necessitate one is not serving oneself. By realizing one is one with the greater thing one serves, other- and self-servitude becomes one and the same; both in theory and in practice. — Ø implies everything
Why does it have to be described in terms of data delivery? — Vera Mont
If we simply left the need for proper social servitude as some need and desire that makes us happier, we would be underplaying the importance and profundity of fulfilling this need. — Ø implies everything
If social servitude only makes you happy, it is replaceable by other sources of happiness. — Ø implies everything
Which is exactly what we need to do, if we are ever to stop slaughtering one another on the orders of our 'superiors'. As long as there is willing submission, there is enthusiastic domination. — Vera Mont
Is it? Does servitude really make you happier than cooperation? Can you compare the mood of a barn-raising to that of a chain-gang? I think a big-brained species needs several diverse sources of satisfaction. Group effort is only of these. Intimacy is another. Overcoming self-chosen challenge. Physical pleasure. The companionship of friends. Contact with nature. The appreciation of culture and creative endeavour. Acknowledgment and respect. — Vera Mont
meaninglessness goes hand-in-hand with apathy and desensitivity, which leads to all kinds of depravity. — Ø implies everything
Anyway, why conflate psychological needs with the purpose of existence? Surely, existence came first; meaning and purpose were imposed only later. — Vera Mont
The question remains. If Niki is real and is as conflicted as the threads produced so far suggest.
What do you think he/she/they gain, from remaining silent after posting an opening that purports to be seeking help from TPF members. — universeness
If we are viewing these things from an objective standpoint, then you are correct. But meaning is subjective. — JWW
Subjectively, from the rock's POV, it simply exists. If some other entity - e.g. a human - uses it as a symbol, it has meaning for that human, but the rock itself simply continues to exist.A rock is not a symbol (objectively), but it could be a symbol (subjectively), if we apply a meaning to it. — JWW
The color blue can be a symbol, in various contexts. — JWW
Furthermore, human beings can become symbols. — JWW
Here's a good moment from Star Trek: The Next Generation. Short conversation between Dr. Crusher and Data (an AI android, for those who don't know):Meaning is subjective, so I don’t believe there can be a definitive answer to “the meaning of life”. But that’s why I love this question! In attempting to answer it, we reveal more about ourselves than we do about the nature of reality. And in doing so, I get to connect with people who view life differently than myself. — JWW
That's what this whole conversation about meaning is. Finding our place in the universe.Data: What is the definition of life?
Crusher: That is a BIG question. Why do you ask?
Data: I am searching for a definition that will allow me to test an hypotheses.
Crusher: Well, the broadest scientific definition might be that life is what enables plants and animals to consume food, derive energy from it, grow, adapt themselves to their surrounding, and reproduce.
Data: And you suggest that anything that exhibits these characteristics is considered alive.
Crusher: In general, yes.
Data: What about fire?
Crusher: Fire?
Data: Yes. It consumes fuel to produce energy. It grows. It creates offspring. By your definition, is it alive?
Crusher: Fire is a chemical reaction. You could use the same argument for growing crystals. But, obviously, we don't consider them alive.
Data: And what about me? I do not grow. I do not reprodue. Yet I am considered to be alive.
Crusher: That's true. But you are unique.
Data: Hm. I wonder if that is so.
Crusher: Data, if I may ask, what exactly are you getting at?
Data: I am curious as to what transpired between the moment when I was nothing more than an assemblage of parts in Dr. Sung's laboratory and the next moment, when I became alive. What is it that endowed me with life?
Crusher: I remember Wesley asking me a similar question when he was little. And I tried desperately to give him an answer. But everything I said sounded inadequate. Then I realized that scientists and philosophers have been grappling with that question for centuries without coming to any conclusion.
Data: Are you saying the question cannot be answered?
Crusher: No. I think I'm saying that we struggle all our lives to answer it. That it's the struggle that is important. That's what helps us to define our place in the universe.
You must have an easy life then, still it doesn’t make sense to state there is no meaning to life. — simplyG
Maybe the meaning of life is love or to give yourself meaning such as be successful and enjoy it ? — simplyG
Now you've got it!Or maybe just be happy that you’re alive — simplyG
It makes perfect sense. — Vera Mont
Why can't you simply live, love, succeed and enjoy, with no hidden messages? — Vera Mont
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