Connecting the trinity with quantum entanglement completely fails when you try to sneak in teleology and intent as part of the posit. — universeness
I hope you decide to pursue your decision to study some of the youtube stuff on QM, and come back to us on this thread, regarding it's connection with entropy and your musings on teleology, intent and theism. — universeness
We two, fully accept 180 Proof's reminder that none of the three of us are physicists and we can only at best, skirt around the edges of the subject, but, I regularly make 'improvements' in my understanding of physics, by reading some books and watching some youtube stuff on the wide range of physics topics that exist. — universeness
It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God - but to create him.
— Arthur C. Clarke
At my most speculative, I'm attracted to pandeism because it is more consistent with my philosophical (& methodological) naturalism – all we rigorously know and observe – than any other deity / divinity concept. — 180 Proof
I struggle to understand how you fail to see that The Trinity, centuries before QM, claimed the superposition of three entities, one of them flesh and blood.
— ucarr
:yikes: wtf ... — 180 Proof
Near the end of the video, with four seconds remaining, pause the video so you can study the graphic displayed there. — ucarr
Near the end of the video, with four seconds remaining, pause the video so you can study the graphic displayed there.
— ucarr
I have encountered this diagram before on youtube. It has been used by such con men as Kent Hovind and his son Eric Hovind. This 'trinity' video and it's content are pure hokum. The diagram is useless and meaningless. — universeness
Victor's response on Quora: — universeness
I clicked the link but I didn't bother watching. Twelve years of primary & seconary Jesuit education (four years of Latin, one year of Greek) and in particular study of the theological apologetics of Early Church Fathers, etc have left me confident that I understand the 'Doctrine of the Holy Trinity' well enough already. Also, I think I've made it abundantly clear, ucarr, I'm neither a religious believer nor a metapjysical supernaturalist, so why refer me to this video. I prefer not to have to regret losing five minutes which I can never get back again.Click on the link below and watch the short YouTube video.
TrinityLogic— ucarr
I had assumed you were an atheist, through and through,
— universeness
Insofar as atheism means theism is not true and therefore theistic deities are fictions, I am "an atheist through and through", which I've stated already ..
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/789507 — 180 Proof
> this is the link to 180s comment https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/789507↪universeness My near-"ignostic" position is that theistic gods are fictions (atheism re: tokens) because the sine non qua claims of theism are not true (antitheism re: type). Thus, as far as I'm concerned, religious scriptures are canonized allegories just as religious practices are applied superstitions, and are only worth discussing or opposing when they are used (by theocratic fundies or ignorant/hypocritical literalists) to "justify" coercing obedience to the prerogatives of religious leaders and their functionaries. — 180 Proof
…when we are, "God" is not; when "God" is, we are not. — 180 Proof
TrinityLogic
— ucarr
I clicked the link but I didn't bother watching. — 180 Proof
Twelve years of primary & seconary Jesuit education (four years of Latin, one year of Greek) and in particular study of the theological apologetics of Early Church Fathers, etc have left me confident that I understand the 'Doctrine of the Holy Trinity' well enough already. — 180 Proof
As for the rest of your post ... :roll: — 180 Proof
If you wish to engage me in a direct discussion on an aspect of religious dogma, such as the trinity, then we can do so by PM... — universeness
My ninety per cent confidence you will not commit to such a written statement is bolstered by your speculation about pan deism. You allow hedge room for a deity within your metaphysical commitments because, as I’ve been speculating, deep down you know you have an immortal soul: — ucarr
Here is an old challenge I have been making to devoted theists, since I was around 20 (I am now 59).
Let's see if the Christian god can stop me from finishing this sentence ...... looks like it can't. — universeness
I don't understand this question in light of the above.Are you willing to commit yourself, in the emphatic mode of your above words, to a written statement declaring that you permanently reject the personal presence of the Holy Spirit as a worthless and meaningless fiction?
... does not trump your responsibilities as a thinker (especially here on TPF), at minimum, not to degenerate 'philosophical discussions' into proselytizing cant rationalized by vapid, dogmatic, apologia (or woo woo). :brow:My job, as a believer ... — ucarr
Are you willing to commit yourself, in the emphatic mode of your above words, to a written statement declaring that you permanently reject the personal presence of the Holy Spirit as a worthless and meaningless fiction?
I don't understand this question in light of the above. — 180 Proof
Twelve years of primary & seconary Jesuit education (four years of Latin, one year of Greek)... have left me confident that I understand the 'Doctrine of the Holy Trinity' well enough already. — 180 Proof
My job, as a believer ...
— ucarr
... does not trump your responsibilities as a thinker (especially here on TPF), at minimum, not to degenerate 'philosophical discussions' into proselytizing cant rationalized by vapid, dogmatic, apologia (or woo woo). :brow: — 180 Proof
The hell you speak of is a product of your own primal fear. It only exists in your mind, put there by liars.God won't stop you from doing what you are empowered to do. The gates of Hell are locked from the inside. Those dwelling therein are there by personal choice firmly established. — ucarr
So let it be written, so let it be done ...... with bells on. Now, what was that about your 90% confidence? :lol: Gods have no power, they never have and they never will, because they have no intent or teleology, because they have no existence. Your first quote above is a pure cop out. Even though I easily met your challenge, your irrational fear makes you cling to the hope that your god is biding its time and will deal with me later. Not very 'all mighty' of it. Perhaps it's too busy being entertained, by all the human suffering going on on Earth.If you are willing to commit to writing your permanent rejection of the Holy Spirit, I want it understood you choose to do so for reasons quite beyond the issues of a debate. If you do this thing, it should be borne of a deep and abiding belief that the God of Christianity is one you wish permanent and insuperable separation from. This state of ultimate separation from God is the proper definition of Hell. — ucarr
I release you from any responsibility or influence ucarr regarding the non-existence of my or any esoteric soul. You are not responsible for the hiddenness/impotence/non-existence of a supernatural mind with an ability to demonstrate its existence.Please do not act under my influence. My job, as a believer, is to nudge you in the opposite direction. I acknowledge I can't persuade you in any significant way. Your final outcome is based upon your nature, your will and your personal choices. — ucarr
I don't think you have understood me fully ucarr. I am not being tough or brave here. I do not experience your fear and dread, as I assign 0 credence to the proposals, that for you, power them. Let's say your god and it's friend/enforcer Satan exists, and I go to hell, then I would scream and ask for forgiveness, within seconds of being tortured. But your god does nothing, whilst innocent humans suffer terrible events, here on Earth, every day. So, it would not listen to my pleas, as you have stated, because 'you will not be forgiven this transgression.' If your god exists then it had better not forgive me, no matter how much I beg, under torture, as that would make it a liar and a fake. I am happy to be tortured by the supernatural for eternity, as I have lived my life, standing against all human tyranny. Your god, if it existed would be the biggest tyrant ever. So It would have to face my judgement, not me face it's judgement. Your god, if it exists is a fool, if it does not fear the judgement of all those humans/animals etc who have suffered, due to its incompetent creation.Your mocking tone signals to me an attitude lacking in seriousness. Good! Mock me forever. Never mock God! You say if Yahweh exists, it is an evil monster. This is exactly what the infernal one wishes you to believe. Satan, who proceeds by deception, reaches his apex of power when he hoodwinks a living soul into believing things are exactly opposite to reality. When a living soul believes Good is Evil and Evil (in this instance: "proof" of God's non-existence via your supposed harmless commitment to disdain God in writing) is Good, damnation triumphs over innocence. Even so, if you willfully cross the line into mockery and permanent rejection of the Holy Spirit, you will not be forgiven this transgression. — ucarr
There is no atheist party and there are many shades of atheism and atheists. @180 Proof is very capable of stating his own position, in his own way.I don't expect 180 Proof to react in a manner similar to yours. If I'm right about him likely dodging any definitive statement about him committing to permanent rejection of the Holy Spirit, take note of it. He is your ally in atheism. If you see him deviate from the atheist party line, perhaps with subtlety and guile, let him influence you. He's not niave about the Holy Trinity. — ucarr
:fire:The hell you speak of is a product of your own primal fear. It only exists in your mind, put there by liars. — universeness
Even though I easily met your challenge, your irrational fear makes you cling to the hope that your god is biding its time and will deal with me later. — universeness
If you are willing to commit to writing your permanent rejection of the Holy Spirit, I want it understood you choose to do so for reasons quite beyond the issues of a debate. If you do this thing, it should be borne of a deep and abiding belief that the God of Christianity is one you wish permanent and insuperable separation from. This state of ultimate separation from God is the proper definition of Hell.
— ucarr
So let it be written, so let it be done ...... — universeness
I release you from any responsibility or influence ucarr regarding the non-existence of my... soul — universeness
Let's say your god and it's friend/enforcer Satan exists, and I go to hell, then I would scream and ask for forgiveness, within seconds of being tortured. — universeness
...your god does nothing, whilst innocent humans suffer terrible events, here on Earth, every day. — universeness
So, it would not listen to my pleas, as you have stated, because 'you will not be forgiven this transgression.' — universeness
If your god exists then it had better not forgive me, no matter how much I beg, under torture, as that would make it a liar and a fake. I am happy to be tortured by the supernatural for eternity, as I have lived my life, standing against all human tyranny. Your god, if it existed would be the biggest tyrant ever. So It would have to face my judgement, not me face it's judgement. Your god, if it exists is a fool, if it does not fear the judgement of all those humans/animals etc who have suffered, due to its incompetent creation. — universeness
I will still respect your skills to think in interesting ways. — universeness
Be content that bad atheists like me will suffer for eternity, for my unforgivable crime of rejecting primal fear and irrationality, whilst you will be in heaven, constantly telling a god how wonderful you think it is. — universeness
At best your post is disingenuous since "the question" is merely rhetorical given my previously stated philosophical commitments. Again, ucarr, for 45 years now I haven't had any religious or supernatural beliefs whatsoever as I reject all species of magical thinking (such as yours :sparkle:). — 180 Proof
At best your post is disingenuous since "the question" is merely rhetorical given my previously stated philosophical commitments. Again, ucarr, for 45 years now I haven't had any religious or supernatural beliefs whatsoever as I reject all species of magical thinking (such as yours :sparkle:). — 180 Proof
Is belief in the Trinity magical thinking?
— ucarr
No doubt. — 180 Proof
No, you keep missing my main message to you. I am as disappointed with your dalliances with theism as you are with my total rejection of theism. All of your uses of theistic terminology such as god, satan, christian, heaven, hell etc have a high cringe factor for me, as they dilute your status as a critical thinker and a skeptic in my eyes. I experience more concern from that, than I do about any threat that I will suffer for eternity is a non-existent christian hell.You think I want God to banish you to hell in reaction to our exchange of ideas within a debate? I'm a sinner, but I certainly hope I'm not guilty of what you charge me with. — ucarr
Of course I harbour primal fears and of course I experience irrational thought and they have had more power over me in the past than they do now. I have defeated both in the sense that they do not dictate to my critical faculty. My reason overwhelms them.Yes, I harbor primal fears; you don't? Some of them are irrational. Are none of your thoughts irrational? — ucarr
I could never be as evil as the christian notion of a god, as a quartet (imo) of vile (multiple/schizophrenic) personalities, as absent father, magical son, 'silly' and ridiculous holy ghost and enforcer satan.In your above statements, you show your likeness to God. I'm honored by your willingness to share with me your sacred devotion to other humans. — ucarr
And you have proven me (us) wrong, sir, that you can reason cogently and honestly. — 180 Proof
I have one simple question to ask you that, I think, will prove that you do not truly believe your... words. I’m confident, up to the level of ninety per cent, that you will not answer my simple question because it would mean immersing yourself within a commitment I do not expect you make. — ucarr
Are you willing to commit yourself, in the emphatic mode of your ...words, to a written statement declaring that you permanently reject the personal presence of the Holy Spirit as a worthless and meaningless fiction? — ucarr
No, you keep missing my main message to you. I am as disappointed with your dalliances with theism as you are with my total rejection of theism. All of your uses of theistic terminology such as god, satan, christian, heaven, hell etc have a high cringe factor for me, as they dilute your status as a critical thinker and a skeptic in my eyes. I experience more concern from that, than I do about any threat that I will suffer for eternity is a non-existent christian hell. — universeness
Of course I harbour primal fears and of course I experience irrational thought and they have had more power over me in the past than they do now. I have defeated both in the sense that they do not dictate to my critical faculty. My reason overwhelms them. — universeness
I could never be as evil as the christian notion of a god, as a quartet (imo) of vile (multiple/schizophrenic) personalities, as absent father, magical son, 'silly' and ridiculous holy ghost and enforcer satan. — universeness
I remain interested in your treatment of a youtube video on any aspect of QM.
My final expression of my opinion of your dalliances with theism is: :roll: — universeness
Since you disbelieve God and Satan are enemies, do you also disbelieve there's spiritual warfare permeating human experience? — ucarr
I'm willing to eliminate further discussion of God in my dialogs with you and 180 Proof. — ucarr
:up: :up:I use the term spiritual, as referring to human breathing and movement and nothing of the transcendent or esoteric. — universeness
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