It literally isn't, because citizens tend to be more leftist than conservatives statistically. But literally provide any evidence of what you say, — unenlightened

Not really, at least not in the Mediterranean nations, or old East European countries, such as Poland, Serbia, Hungary, etc. Here is the evidence you are asking for:

Spain: https://www.socialeurope.eu/is-spain-on-the-right-track
Greece: https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/greece/
Italy: https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/italy/
Poland: https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/poland/ (67 % are conservatives! )
Hungary: Hungary Is the Most Right-Wing Nation in Europe
Serbia: Together, these right-leaning parties won more than 77 per cent of the popular vote (https://balkaninsight.com/2020/08/04/serbias-right-wing-shift-risks-fuelling-extremism/)

If making it easier to vote were good for conservatives, why in the world did Donald trump talk so much smack on mail in voting? Shouldn't he be a big fan? — flannel jesus

He was asking for a more regulated and guaranteed mail voting system, because he suspected why Biden was obsessed with using this method. Wouldn't you be worried if a candidate decides to "overreacting" on a voting system? Yet, there were errors in the counting, and the votes needed to be counted again. This makes less confidence.

Did you know Donald trump himself does mail in voting? — flannel jesus

President's security service. Does this ring a bell to you?

not any bells relevant to the conversation, care to fill in the blanks?

He voted by mail before he was president.

You don't have to convince me that the right can win elections and be more popular than the left. You have to convince me that they favour widening the vote and not restricting it.

You have to convince me that they favour widening the vote and not restricting it. — unenlightened

Statistically speaking, the right wing has two good elements to win the elections but - for whatever reason - are not used sometimes:
1) an united block. The left tends to be divided in different sections, at least in Europe.
2) the "mob" (as flannel jesus says) tend to be more active in the right, because, believe it or not, these voters tend to have more confidence in the state. Meanwhile, leftists just do not go to vote because it is an act "against the system".

So, if we let the people go to vote with confidence, they probably would end up voting for the right wing. But, if the environment is twisted and the people are not sure of what is going on, they vote for the left. I mean, people vote left because they are fearful. Just check the results. When the percentage of voters is small, people go and vote for socialism. Paradoxically, they think that voting left provides a secured position to their rights, which it is the opposite.

He voted by mail before he was president. — flannel jesus

Exactly. Before everything went twisted, you have answered to yourself.

Can you speak plainly please? I don't want to guess at what the fuck you're talking about.

Why is the fact that left-leaning voters are more likely to be able to fill in a form and vote by post so threatening and so evidential of fraud? Can someone please connect those dots for me because it's getting a little silly in here.

Conspiracy theorists connect the dots:

What major event occurred during the 2020 election that increased the number of mail in votes?

What was the response on the right and left to that event?

They somehow think that republican leaders harping on ad nauseum about how mail in voting is untrustworthy and every voter should come vote in person is completely unrelated to the fact that most mail in ballots are for lefty candidates. There's no casual connection for some reason in their minds.

2) the "mob" (as flannel jesus says) tend to be more active in the right, because, believe it or not, these voters tend to have more confidence in the state. Meanwhile, leftists just do not go to vote because it is an act "against the system". — javi2541997

Socialists are usually accused of having too much confidence in the state and left to their own devices they’d walk wide-eyed into an Orwellian dystopia. On the other hand, American conservatives tend to believe that the state is inherently incompetent and corrupt and that’s the justification for wanting it to be as small as possible.

people vote left because they are fearful. — javi2541997

In America right-wing politicians tend to use fear tactics. Just look at Trump for example.

Nah, you are not silly. It is just curious how the mail-in ballots and the lack of participation always benefit the left.

and the lack of participation always benefit the left. — javi2541997

Where did you get this from?

Here's a paper that says the opposite:

"The article employs nonparametric meta-analytic methods to synthesize a large number of empirical studies and demonstrates that low structural turnout does indeed favor the right in theoretically predictable ways."

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/21565503.2015.1124789

Are you just throwing things out there that you feel or want to be correct? Because the general form of "reasoning" employed seems to be "My team is better so if my team loses there must be some cheating going on". This is what I mean by sillliness.

Socialists are usually accused of having too much confidence in the state and left to their own devices they’d walk wide-eyed into an Orwellian dystopia. — praxis

Interesting. Here the opposite happens. Most of the leftists are divided and do not take part in the elections. But, paradoxically, when the participation is low, they win. Because the right wing didn’t have a good plan to move the voters or people in general (when they are larger in numbers statistically)

From what I know of Spanish history I would expect socialism to be less popular there than in the States. Actually I have that backwards, Franco was conservative.

It is just curious how the mail-in ballots .... always benefit the left. — javi2541997

For this, we should surely:

1) Establish, using evidence, the premise that mail-in ballots "always benefit the left". (A contrary view: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/there-is-no-evidence-that-voting-by-mail-gives-one-party-an-advantage/ Why is this wrong?)
2) Provide some reasoning as to why this is "curious" rather than something we simply can't be bothered expending mental energy on understanding or something with many possible explanations that are not curious.
3) Demonstrate, using evidence, that this "curious" phenomenon necessitates in any way fraud or deception on the part of the party benefiting.

Anything short of this is just wasting space.

Amazing! And thank you for showing your evidences and proofs. — javi2541997

Lol.

It’s amazing people can be such complete dupes.

Here the opposite happens. — javi2541997

Well Spain is a very different place to the US, or the UK where I am. That might account for our different intuitions. Living with Franco after the civil war, I can see that 'the left' would look disorganised by comparison. And certainly an apathetic to hostile working class can also be a major problem for the left.. I'll just say that Trump is no Franco, and America is not in a state of economic collapse. But nor is it immune from fascist takeover.

Also forgotten: in the US 2020 election, there was split voting. In Maine, for example, Biden won the presidency— while Susan Collins, a republican, was re-elected in the senate.

There is no evidence of widespread voter fraud. It’s so minuscule it’s barely worth mentioning.

All that’s left is the feelings of those who actually listen to Trump’s insane ramblings. “Oh look, more mail in votes went for Biden— isn’t THAT fishy?”

It’d be even funnier if it weren’t so damn pathetic.

There is a Reuters report citing Boris Johnson claiming that the Ukraine won the Second World War and some Japanese diplomat is hinting that it was the Russians who dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. Aside from sports results and most weather reports, it is only be exception that anyone could trust the veracity of mainstream media reports.

"Just Two weeks to flatten the curve?'

It’s amazing people can be such complete dupes. — Mikie

You are allowed to insult me because you are a moderator. If I were the one who disrespects you, I would be banned instantly. Ah, the hypocrisy man. As a good socialist.

For most of my life, Republicans were the ones more likely to vote by mail. Dear Leader didn't like it, so of course the Republican sheeple changed their voting patterns.

Those are good points, Baden, and I partially agree. Your arguments can only be applied to democracies which work well or at least better than other countries. I have no doubt that it can work in the UK or Ireland, because I guess there is a bit of corruption in public administration if we compare it amongst other nations.

On the other hand, it is true that I am not providing enough evidence that the mail voting system could be a fraud, and I understand the criticism in my argumentation. Nonetheless, this is not correlated to the fact that I have to believe in such a system blindly. That's what I am complaining about. Some users see this system as purely perfect. Well, we are in a philosophical forum, and we have the right to debate and doubt.

My intention is not to support Trump or just to "flex" and act as an internet troll. I just wanted to make counterarguments and doubt everything. Why do I have to believe in the mail voting system? Why do I have to condemn Trump when an American court hasn't condemned him yet? Etc. Who am I to do so?

Good points :up: But our economic collapse comes from the left wing, because when the right wing rules, Spain can be a better place for investments.

From what I know of Spanish history I would expect socialism to be less popular there than in the States. Actually I have that backwards, Franco was conservative. — praxis

It is less popular, no doubts. But they win because they are covered by separatists and nationalists from Catalonia and the Basque Country. At the end of the day, it has more value for a few voters of Barcelona or Bilbao than the rest of the nation. I am not living under a democracy and I have already accepted it...

Why do I have to believe in the mail voting system? — javi2541997

Why would someone not believe in mail-in voting? Hopefully because there is evidence that shows it’s unreliable and not because a politician says it’s unreliable.

Btw, if voting systems are prone to fraud, how do we know that only democrats abuse it? Maybe the cheaters are republicans.

Ah, ok, I guess I understand you a bit better. There are some here who are genuinely uninterested in doing anything but repeating Trump's nonsense though. I don't see this as exactly symmetrical as I don't think I've ever met a Biden supporter here so enthralled with the man that they are willing to say anything to disguise his shortcomings.

I believe them over the ramblings of an internet dude. Especially when the “evidence” is so easily reduced to the crap it is.

But it’s fun to watch you pick and choose when it’s convenient. Kinda like Trump and polls: when they show him ahead, they’re accurate. If not, rigged.

My intention is not to support Trump, just to "flex" and act as an internet troll. — javi2541997

You are allowed to insult me — javi2541997

Hey you’re the one calling yourself a troll. I just happen to think you’re correct.

Nonetheless, this is not correlated to the fact that I have to believe in such a system blindly. That's what I am complaining about. — javi2541997

If someone forcing you to believe that? By what means are they forcing you to believe that?

I understand your point, and I partially agree with. Again, the core of our debate is whether the use of mail voting can lead to fraud or not. I still defend yes, it can be election fraud on this, why? These are my arguments:

The system is trusted by post officers. I don't have anything against them, and they have all my respect. But you know, people can make mistakes too. If you are not the one who deposit the ballot in the box, you are acting blindly, and you have to believe in the system a lot. It could happen that those post officers are forced to switch the numbers of ballots or fake them.
Evidence: https://www.msn.com/es-es/noticias/espana/un-juzgado-abre-una-investigaci%C3%B3n-ante-los-indicios-de-compra-de-votos-por-correo-en-melilla/ar-AA1bnnbm

Rejected for arriving late or other human errors which complicate the counting. Hundreds of thousands of ballots go uncounted each year because people make mistakes, such as forgetting to sign the form or sending it in too late. Evidence: Source, NPR survey of individual Secretary of State and state election offices Credit: Ruth Talbot and Elena Moore/NPR. https://www.npr.org/2020/07/13/889751095/signed-sealed-undelivered-thousands-of-mail-in-ballots-rejected-for-tardiness

:up: