• Wolfgang
    69
    Metaphysics extrapolates the findings of physics (along with those of philosophy) into a general ontology. If one makes a distinction between inanimate and animate nature, then a metabiology is logically responsible for a general ontology of life. It not only generalizes the findings of biology and physics, but also provides a theoretical framework that results from the peculiarity of life in relation to inanimate nature.
    When we speak of life, we always mean the structure that arises from the autocatalytic principle of life. It is the central difference between life and non-life. This circumstance must be taken into account by means of a methodological distinction.
    If one reconstructs this autocatalytic principle historically, at a certain point one arrives at the neuronal way of orientation of living beings in the world and finally to human consciousness.

    The need for a biological metatheory is obvious. Even if physics takes care of biological processes, it only ever does so on parts of an organism. These parts, however, are lifeless in themselves, they only come to life in interaction with the entire organism. Life is not a single concept, it is a structural concept that describes a structure. Of course, the findings of physics, biophysics or biochemistry are indispensable for research, but not as a designer for an ontology, but as a supplier of puzzle pieces. From this point of view, the pluralistic scientific community is indispensable for research in all directions.

    If we look at life as a structure, it becomes clear, as it were, that life cannot be reduced to a vis vitalis or to an information inherent in things. Otherwise, dualism through the back door would come into play again.
    Nor does the quantum level play a role, because the specificity of life, i.e. its structure, only arises at the level of the molecules.

    From this point of view, metabiology must not be reduced to physics. Take predictive coding, for example. The concept was developed as a machine learning method and transferred analogously to the brain. Here it may apply to individual internal processes, but it does not serve as a general explanation of the functioning of the brain as a prediction machine. This is an arbitrary attribution that assumes that the ontology of the brain consists of making predictions. Assuming that life strives to maintain a dynamic equilibrium, criticality seems to be resolved in equilibrium rather than calculating probabilities. Of course, probabilities play a selective role, for example in the assessment of whether an obstacle can be overcome. But to proclaim this as an ontology is physicalism.
    And criticality in particular is a good example of the difference between physics and biology: in living systems, criticality is reversed by inhibitory neuron assemblies in order to achieve dynamic equilibrium. A process that does not exist in the inanimate world.

    And just as important is the formation of categories. No matter from which perspective we look at the brain, it is always the same brain. Sometimes we use the language of physiology, sometimes that of psychology or philosophy. It's like when we translate a sentence into different languages, the sentence always remains the same.
    So one time we talk about an electrochemical process, the other time about a thought, a sensation or a feeling. We could use these different languages simultaneously, but we have to be careful not to use one to explain the other or establish causality between them.

    If we try to establish a correlation between the languages, this also means that every expression of life, every thought or every sensation must be assigned a physiological process. There is no thinking that proceeds without physiology. Or rather, all thinking is physiology. And all physiology is thinking, whether consciously or unconsciously, whether arbitrary or involuntary. So there is no dualism between a physique and a mind.
    Mind or consciousness must therefore be explainable from physical reality and of course includes all relationships within it.

    Thinking and feeling arise as the joint firing of neurons, i.e. neurons form patterns. It is better to say that holonoms are formed, because this term rather reflects the multidimensionality in which multimodal stimuli are combined.
    Holonoms are more or less stable multidimensional patterns that are more or less open to coupling with other holonomas or stimuli and form a heteronomous structure overall.

    The brain is a highly complex orientation machine that integrates all sensory stimuli.
    This is exactly the difference to the current AI. With its binary approach, it does not produce any thoughts.
    It's not enough to excite a bunch of artificial neurons. Who is then the bearer of the experiences, i.e. of consciousness? There is no subject of experience. So there is nothing that can be described with the concept of the I. This is only possible on the basis of an autocatalytic, autopoietic system.

    The philosophy of mind, as well as cognitive neuroscience, would do well to collaborate on a metabiology of mind.

    At the beginning, we spoke of metaphysics ontologizing physical knowledge. Metabiology can also use such ontological conclusions, but it must first transform them into its own framework. For example, if the theory of dynamical systems describes phase spaces, trajectories and attractors of a passive inanimate system, these are components of a living system after their transformation. The attractor is then no longer a passive 'point of attraction', but an agent that actively changes the entire system, thus shaping state spaces and generating new trajectories.

    Let's take the concept of information in the sense of an ontological concept of structure, as developed by Integrated Information Theory. If it is transformed into a metabiology, it becomes dynamic and changeable. Information is then no longer just a rigid physical concept, but can be described in terms of density and thus in terms of causal force, which gains influence over areas of lower density by means of information or structural gradients. With a bundling of such local densities known as a superstructure, the orientation machine brain could be ontologically justified as the seat of consciousness and I.

    Without a metabiology of mind, brain research, as well as the philosophy of mind, will continue to sleepwalk between utilitarianism (which should not be underestimated) and philosophical speculation.
  • Pantagruel
    3.4k
    Information is then no longer just a rigid physical concept, but can be described in terms of density and thus in terms of causal force, which gains influence over areas of lower density by means of information or structural gradients.Wolfgang

    I agree. I have been working in this direction for several years now. The concept of instrumentality-tools seems applicable. A tool is essentially an information-dense artefact, and illustrates the instrumentality of knowledge/information.
  • Joshs
    5.7k


    Without a metabiology of mind, brain research, as well as the philosophy of mind, will continue to sleepwalk between utilitarianism (which should not be underestimated) and philosophical speculation.Wolfgang


    What do you think of this review of the field of metabiology by Arturo Carsetti?

    https://researchoutreach.org/articles/metabiology-complexity-natural-evolution/?amp=1
  • Wolfgang
    69

    I have problems with terms like "nature as a programmer" or "meaning", "information" or "software". We must not make the mistake of ontologizing our concepts as if they were properties of nature. They are just labels.
    My concept of adaptive random walk sounds very similar. And: I distance myself from the four E's (enactivism, embeddedness, embodiment, extended mind), solely because of a very unclean methodology.
    I try not to impose my concepts on nature, but to model them conceptually.
    But thanks for the link.
    Overall, I have similar ideas, including Chaitin and the others mentioned.
  • Alkis Piskas
    2.1k

    What does (meta)biology have to do with the mind?
    Biology is physical. The mind is non-physical.
    Metabiology is the knowledge and study of biological principles. Mental principles concern and belong to a totally different realm of knowledge.

    Maybe you confuse or equate the mind with the brain. They are two different things. Neither is the mind a product of or resides in the brain. Just imagine, esp. because we are in a philosophical place, that instead of "Philosophy of the mind", we were talking about the "Philosophy of the brain". It would be ridiculous, wouldn't it?

    Let me please suggest, with no offence, that you look up and understand well the term "mind".
  • Wolfgang
    69
    So you mean you have a brain and there's still a mind in there? Even Descartes couldn't find it.
    Or do you think there are two descriptions of the same thing, one physiological and one psychological (or philosophical). In any case, I only have one brain and there's nothing extra in it.
    If you talk about two levels of description, be advised that you cannot establish a causal relationship between the two, that is nonsensical. Unfortunately, philosophy has been doing this for two and a half thousand years. It is an apparent dualism that does not exist in reality. One must not confuse description and reality. There is no causality between physiology and psychology. I won't discuss this any further here.
  • schopenhauer1
    10.9k
    If you talk about two levels of description, be advised that you cannot establish a causal relationship between the two,Wolfgang

    There is a hidden dualism embedded in physical descriptions sure. Neurons X firing is equated with mental event without explanation (easy vs hard problems).

    There is no causality between physiology and psychology. I won't discuss this any further here.Wolfgang

    So you’re posting and not going to discuss? Seems then why post?
  • T Clark
    13.8k


    This is a really great post. I agree with a lot of it and don't understand quite a bit, but your general approach is really interesting. Can you point to some sources for your understanding.

    As you can see, you've stepped in it a bit. You've picked a subject which is right in middle of one of the forum's five or so favorite unresolvable disagreements - the nature of consciousness. I hope you won't let the discussion be sideswiped off the direction you are headed.

    Maybe this is an odd question, but it's one I've thought about a lot for metaphysics in general - where do you make the break between biology and metabiology? I sometimes have a hard time making that distinction with science in general, but it seems to me it is important to do so. For example, as I see it, self-organization and self-catalysis are biological principles, not metabiological ones.

    You have a really interesting perspective. I hope you'll hang around here on the forum for a while.
  • RogueAI
    2.8k
    Thinking and feeling arise as the joint firing of neurons, i.e. neurons form patterns.Wolfgang

    Why does some neuron activity result in thinking and feeling while other neural/neuron activity results in no feelings? Why are we conscious of only some brain processes? Is IIT a pseudoscience?
  • Wolfgang
    69
    I have developed my own approach over the years, the best place to look is on my website: dr-stegemann.de
    You can have it translated.
    I see the difference between biology and metabiology in the fact that biology as an individual science has a direct angle, metabiology (based on the term metaphysics) has a more general one. I deliberately used the term metabiology of mind to make it clear that metaphysics is not sufficient to explain the specificity of all living things and especially of consciousness. After all, it is not physics that describes life, but biology. And there is only one brain and it is organic and not spiritual.
  • Joshs
    5.7k
    . I deliberately used the term metabiology of mind to make it clear that metaphysics is not sufficient to explain the specificity of all living things and especially of consciousness. After all, it is not physics that describes life, but biology. And there is only one brain and it is organic and not spiritualWolfgang

    Are you saying that metaphysics is to be understood exclusively in relation to physics rather than to biology and psychology as well?
  • Wolfgang
    69
    Just as life is a special case of matter, metabiology is a special case of metaphysics.
  • chiknsld
    314
    So there is no dualism between a physique and a mind.
    Mind or consciousness must therefore be explainable from physical reality and of course includes all relationships within it.
    Wolfgang

    Consciousness is a physical process owing to the fact that it exists?

    This would not immediately follow, especially considering that we have yet to quantify it (consciousness).

    There is a separation but it is not exactly existential. :smile:
  • Alkis Piskas
    2.1k
    So you mean you have a brain and there's still a mind in there?Wolfgang
    Please read again what I said: "Neither is the mind a product of or resides in the brain.

    Even Descartes couldn't find it.Wolfgang
    Not only Descartes. No one can find the find somewhere. Because "somewhere" refers to a place, even ith that place is not specified or determined. But space is physical and, as I mentioned, mind is non-physical. So it doesn't reside in any place. Therfore it can't be found.
    Likewise, no one can find conciousness.

    Or do you think there are two descriptions of the same thing, one physiological and one psychological (or philosophical).Wolfgang
    No. The mind are not two things neither two descriptions of the same thing. But people consider them as one. Scientific materialism is responsible for that.

    If you talk about two levels of description ...Wolfgang
    Again, I don't.

    I think that what I have said in my reply to your topic regarding the brain and the mind was simple and clear. All this should be unnecessary. Maybe it could be avoided if you had looked up and understand well the term "mind" ...
  • Alkis Piskas
    2.1k

    I know that you are on that side, too. :smile:
  • Pantagruel
    3.4k
    The need for a biological metatheory is obvious. Even if physics takes care of biological processes, it only ever does so on parts of an organism. These parts, however, are lifeless in themselves, they only come to life in interaction with the entire organism. Life is not a single concept, it is a structural concept that describes a structureWolfgang

    Are you familiar with Laszlo's theory of biperspectivism? This sounds quite similar. The physical and the non-physical each have their own metaphysical foundation, but exist within a common explanatory framework which is essentially systems theoretic in nature (dynamic equilibrium, autopoeisis, etc).
  • Wolfgang
    69
    For Laszlo the system exists; he does not distinguish between living and inanimate nature. For me, this is a difference that unfortunately is not made in science and philosophy, at least not ontologically and therefore methodologically. You cannot use physics to explain the special case of 'life'. This requires a special perspective, namely that of biology or better: metabiology.
  • Joshs
    5.7k
    You cannot use physics to explain the special case of 'life'. This requires a special perspective, namely that of biology or better: metabiology.Wolfgang

    Do you think the reason we cannot use physics to explain life is because of some fundamental ontological difference between two natural domains, or is it that the conceptual understanding embodied in the vocabulary of physics hasn’t yet ‘caught up with’ that of evolution-based biology? In other words, have we imposed the difficulty on ourselves by the narrow way we have constructed our theories of physics up till now?
  • Wolfgang
    69
    I would explain it like this: in a universe full of matter, which is described using physics, a special form has emerged. To describe this requires a specific discipline.
    Imagine you have a large machine that you describe using mechanics. There is a tiny clockwork in this machine. For this you need precision mechanics. Both are based on the same laws of nature. But you couldn't describe this tiny clock using 'rough mechanics'. The example is not accurate, because life means that there is an active agent that physics cannot represent. It has no concepts for it.
  • Pantagruel
    3.4k
    Yes, you definitely reiterate that with some force. My take is that there is a similarity between his differentiating mind and matter and your differentiating life and matter and that maybe there is a sense in which these are two different versions of the same thing.
  • Philosophim
    2.6k
    As long as this isn't an attempt to disregard the underlying physics, its fine. The problem generally isn't that people want to talk about mind apart from the underlying physics. Its the fact that they think it allows them to ignore or refute the underlying physics.
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