Back in the days of South African Apartheid people didn't find moral clarity so difficult. Israel is a racist, shit country. — Benkei

I feel you're wrong. I know you're (probably) right! :smile: :sad:

Ok these have been up for 2 hours where are the mods

@Benkei @Baden @Jamal @Srap Tasmaner

There's quite some filth here, above Maw.

Posts deleted, user banned.

Although some identifiable groups have been brutally victimized throughout history a disproportionately large number of times, the victims of one place and time can and sometimes do become the victimizers of another place and time.

People should avoid believing, let alone claiming, that they are not capable of committing an atrocity, even if relentlessly pushed. Contrary to what is claimed or felt by many of us, he said, deep down there’s a tyrant in each of us that, under the just-right circumstances, can be unleashed; and maybe even more so when convinced that, God's on my/our side.

While I don't hold much faith in scriptural teachings, I do give credence to the Biblical claim (Jeremiah 17:9) that base corporeal human nature is “desperately wicked”. ... Meanwhile, many contemptible social-media news trolls internationally decide which 'side' they hate less thus 'support' via politicized commentary post.

Back in the days of South African Apartheid people didn't find moral clarity so difficult. Israel is a racist, shit country. — Benkei

So is every other country. Anyone who says they're not racist (or otherwise bigoted) is ignorant, a hypocrite or both.

Said nobody ever during Apartheid.

That was seen as a clear case of European colonialism plus the racial divide. That clarity is lacking in Israel. South African racism was easier to run up a flagpole.

That clarity isn't lacking at all. It has only been obfuscated because of political reasons. The only reason the GAR 3379 was revoked was to get Israel at the table for peace conferences that still seemed hopeful. Zionism is racism. It's really that simple.

if zionism is racism then so is the arab/muslim claim to the land. it's all racism. that group becomes dominant and the other minority group whether arab or jew becomes subordinate.

It's not about any claim to land, obviously. The problems in South Africa had nothing to do with claims to land but a set of rules for one group of people and another set for others. The problems in Israel proper are exactly the same. And that's ignoring in its entirety the issues surrounding the occupied territories.

And as @Manuel two years ago at the OP of this thread stated: "Here we go again". No need for a new thread about the issue.

Seems like the Palestinians in the prison camp called Gaza have made a new prison riot (Operation Al-Aqsa Flood) to make their case. The latest build up of rockets are fired Can have become as a surprise to Israel. And the rest likely is a rerun of we have seen again and again. So waiting now for the Israeli inevitable Israeli response.

With international politics being what they are, this is an incredibly tricky situation.

One can only hope that this powder keg doesn't finally blow, but even so I don't think it's a matter of 'if' but a matter of 'when'.

One can only hope that this powder keg doesn't finally blow, but even so I don't think it's a matter of 'if' but a matter of 'when'. — Tzeentch

I don't think that this powder keg will blow out in one huge fireball, it will just continue to rattle and fizz and produce a lot of smoke for a while. Why?

Isreal as enjoying near total dominance of the battlefield isn't actually threatened by Hamas. Hamas in Gaza isn't a threat for Isreal. The only fear (in my view) is that a "strongman" Israeli leader decides it once and for all to end the prison camp called Gaza. Because, why not. But what then?

Now Gaza has been this camp where Israeli security has manned the walls around it, but the inmates have been in charge. In order to take Gaza back would be immensely costly operation. And then what? Have Israeli army patrol the streets? The previous uprisings are costly and basically demoralizing for an army that previously had these astonishing victories in conventional warfare against it's neighbors.

And there isn't Azerbaijani solution for Gaza as for Nagorno-Karabakh. Or would you empty 2,3 million people from the Gaza prison and through the to the West Bank? Or just push them to Egypt? Dramatic solutions are very likely out of the question as Israeli economy is dependant on Global trade and actually the trade with Palestine (West Bank and Gaza) is important. Israel could easily face sanctions from the EU and China if it takes drastic measures that are similar to ethnic cleansing.

Hence the more likely outcome is a military bombing campaign and limited assaults on Hamas infrastructure to tone down the ability for Hamas to fire the rockets. And hope that the media finally forgets the issue (as it usually does). To contain it.

The real question is if Palestinians in the West Bank or Hezbollah in Lebanon would come to the help of Hamas. That's an interesting question.

Israeli television's version of the attack:


An Al-jazeera's version:

A pale echo of a previous successful surprise attack on the eve of a Jewish religious holiday. The 1973 offensive began 50 years ago to the day (Yom Kippur instead of the end of Sukkot due to how the holidays float around).

Then, Egypt could boast of some impressive initial breakthroughs, and was quite successful until false Syrian reports of their success up north goaded them out from beneath their SAM umbrella. The war ended in disaster. The IDF had pushed the SAA back into the Damascus suburbs in 72 hours, the Syrian MOD HQ was bombed to ruins, the Egyptian army encircled and open to destruction, and the way to Cairo wide open. But, it did open the door to long term peace because Egypt amazingly was still able to make their initial successes into political win. I don't see the possibility of that here.

You see a lot of other things in this echo. Here the early surprising success up from Gaza is a handful of destroyed tanks and shock that those who crossed the border were able to hold for all of six hours. Of course, Netanyahu is playing it up like it's 1973, but the dates are the only analogous part here.

The military situation is hopeless for the Palestinians. They are in many ways blockaded harder by Egypt than Israel for their role in the Sinai insurgency. Their leadership is far more fractured than in 1973. The other Arab states have turned on them, leaving Iran as their main ally. Syria is in ruins and in no position to assist them. Russian support can't approximate anything close to what the Arabs received from the Soviets in 1973, nor are the Russian's particularly willing to support Hamas openly, at best filtering aid through Iran.

If anything, this should underscore Israel's ability to make concessions because the balance of power is so far to their side, but I seriously doubt that's how it will be taken. It's a blunder by Hamas in terms of increasing the bargaining power of their side re independence and peace, but I've long come to the conclusion that a lot of attacks on Israel are more about infighting between Palestinian groups, jockeying for position, then a pursuit of long term independence goals, a sort of focus on being king of the rubble.

This is, of course, exactly what the extremists who rule Israel want.

On a side note, it seems like Hamas may have been given some effective ATGMs. They have a picture of at least one Kornet. The success of their drones early might have more to do with surprise than their ability to defeat AD though.

A pale echo of a previous successful surprise attack on the eve of a Jewish religious holiday. The 1973 offensive began 50 years ago to the day (Yom Kippur instead of the end of Sukkot due to how the holidays float around). — Count Timothy von Icarus

Just to give perspective, during the Yom Kippur war Israel lost 2800 dead, Egypt 5000 to 15000 and Syria about 3000 dead. That is a pale comparison to the war in Ukraine. But then again, Yom Kippur war went on for only two weeks and five days.

I think in all of the conflicts in Israel starting from 1948 less people have in all died than in Finland lost servicemen during WW2. Or the number is equal. Hence in actuality and it is very grim to say it, but these conflicts haven't been so bloody that people would really feel sick of the wars as happened in Europe after the Word Wars.

The military situation is hopeless for the Palestinians. — Count Timothy von Icarus

I agree.

Their leadership is far more fractured than in 1973. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Yes. It is interesting to see what is the reaction of a) The Palestinian authority in the West Bank, b) Hezbollah and Iran, c) The Arab states.

I've long come to the conclusion that a lot of attacks on Israel are more about infighting between Palestinian groups, jockeying for position, then a pursuit of long term independence goals, a sort of focus on being king of the rubble. — Count Timothy von Icarus

The last Isreali-Lebanon war is a good example of this. Actually it didn't go so well for the Israelis as Hezbollah had finally trained it's forces with the emphasis on lower rank officers and NCO's taking the inititiative. This might really be the issue, to be the king of the rubble, as you said. The reason is that both side in the end are accustomed to fighting a limited war. As I stated earlier, there's no reasonable "final solution" type of course for Netanyahu to take (to end this conflict). Especially with Netanyahu being Netanyahu.

If anything, this should underscore Israel's ability to make concessions because the balance of power is so far to their side, but I seriously doubt that's how it will be taken. It's a blunder by Hamas in terms of increasing the bargaining power of their side re independence and peace, but I've long come to the conclusion that a lot of attacks on Israel are more about infighting between Palestinian groups, jockeying for position, then a pursuit of long term independence goals, a sort of focus on being king of the rubble.

This is, of course, exactly what the extremists who rule Israel want. — Count Timothy von Icarus

The war is kept alive by extremists on both sides with the main intention of staying in power.

That's why I find this hard to credit as "freedom fighting". Of course the oppression is real but this response is neither supposed to nor capable of ending it.

And, as you say, the extremists in Israel have no intention to allow a solution when the conflict is so profitable for them politically.

Not saying either side actually consciously thinks it through in that frame, but their domestic political interests are shaping their decisions, with the result being more useless death and destruction.

If I had to guess the impetus for the timing I would guess that Hamas looked at the approval, funding, and volunteer boost Islamic Jihad got from their recent tangle with the IDF and decided they needed to boost their own credentials.

I would guess that Iran isn't wild about some larger conflict where they have to try to get more aid to Gaza, not when the Russians are paying top dollar for anything they can get their hands on in terms of weapons.

I also read a paper once though that suggested that Israel's highly effective targeting of Palestinian leadership actually created perverse incentives for lower level leaders in those groups to push for attacks. Basically, the groups in many ways operate like organized crime (also sometimes like legitimate states, it's a mix) and your ability to rise is contingent on vacancies opening up, which often only happens through death. But getting a leadership spot means opportunities for wealthy and influence. So younger guys with ambition have an incentive to push for attacks that don't otherwise make much sense because it will result in their bosses getting kocked off and vacancies opening.

This sort of thing gets increasingly noxious as groups get into the drug trade and prostitution, since that attracts another crowd. And this has certainly happened. Hezbollah and other groups has been seen in Latin America working as muscle/training for drug traffickers. Obviously, not everyone is on board with this sort of corrupting influence, but it's a way to make "dark money," the US can't shut down and the type of people who will traffick weapons for you are also the type of people who tend to traffick drugs and people.

What a mess. It does show though what an incredibly good idea it was to force all settlers out of Gaza earlier, back when the Israeli government was sane.

Another massacre... Hamas has hostages this time, I've read.

And yes, as mentioned, exactly what the hardliners in Israel want.

Another massacre... Hamas has hostages this time, I've read. — Manuel

Aparently an elder women of a family, being paraded in a golf cart. See video below, 2:48



Yes, but in all the paragliding troops into Israeli settlements, the home made unguided rockets fired into Israel and armed men literally walking to Israel is a sign how weak the Palestinians are. But that's not the way they are going to be portrayed in US media. Of course the special forces mission to liberate the pensioner will be portrayed as a sweeping victory (if the granny is gotten alive). How many Palestinian families are taken out doesn't matter.

The hardliners are indeed happy. Negotiation is weakness, there is no other solution than perpetual war. Because such a weak enemy, confined in prison settlements, the death toll isn't too high for ordinary life to go on... with some fighting every once in a decade.

Surprised that the Mossad did not know about this at least 70 Israelis killed. Now Gaza will feel - for the umpteenth time - the hell of the Israeli military, probably going to be several thousand civilians killed in Gaza.

Appears to be a reaction to Israel's provocation of having that minister walking on the Temple Mount. I suppose that in retrospect one should've expected this reply.

I wonder if Saudi Arabia or Qatar will do anything to try and make this shorter than it would otherwise be. Another bloodbath and worst of all is the loss of civilians...

More human meat for the insatiable "God of Abraham/Ibrahim" ...

David attacks Goliath. What other viable choice does David have but from time to time to bleed in order to remind Goliath that he is also mere flesh and blood. Nonetheless, Goliath has far more to gain than it loses and David simply has nothing to lose which keeps oppression's tragic cycle of indiscriminant, reprisal murders going. Goliath savages David.

David attacks Goliath. What other viable choice does David have but from time to time to bleed in order to remind Goliath that he is also mere flesh and blood. — 180 Proof

It seems to me that other oppressed people in history have found other viable choices to make, and occasionally been successful.

True, in other historical situations with oppressors more incentivized to eventually cease oppressing subject populations (though very rarely without relentlessly violent resistance).

Yeah, 198 Palestinians killed. I wonder if having captured civilians will make Israel use some degree of restraint when bombing Gaza. It may.

I doubt it.

Yeah, you are probably right. There's a recent quote by the Israeli defense minister, "We will change the face of reality in Gaza years from now."

This will be horrific. :(

Does anyone have any information on how much Hamas's unguided missiles cost to make, load, and fuel? (they are unguided, right?) How much do they weigh? How much explosive payload do they carry? About what percent of the rocket launches actually hit buildings and cause extensive damage? Granted, their rockets don't have to hit anything critical -- a rocket blowing up nearby dirt would be -- just guessing -- nerve racking enough.

The distance between a point in Gaza to a point in Jerusalem is 50 miles / 80 km. It's 44 / 70 km between Gaza and Tel Aviv. So, a pretty good range for a sort of home-made rockets. Gaza factories probably have to operate for a couple of years, or so, to produce enough rockets to make an "adequate showing".

But then they have more than one model -- some are better than others.

Presumably Iran is the source of the cash / material that goes into the rockets, and I assume the stuff is smuggled in through Egypt above or below ground -- no big ships in Gaza's ports with missiles stacked up on the decks.

I haven't heard (as of 1:00 p.m. Central time) how well the Iron Dome defense system performed. The rockets in that system are said to cost between $20,000 and $100,000.

They're called "Qassam rocket" and the cost ranges from $300-800

https://jinsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Memo_Evaluating-the-Danger-from-Gazas-Weapons-Stockpile-1.pdf

https://www.dailysabah.com/business/defense/israels-push-to-repel-hamas-retaliatory-fire-incurs-heavy-cost

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket

Worth noting that: The introduction of the Qassam rocket was unexpected by Israeli politicians and military experts,[18] and reactions have been mixed.[19] In 2006, the Israeli Ministry of Defense viewed the Qassams as "more a psychological than physical threat."[20]

They aren't very effective, given they don't have access to sophisticated materials. But they can still kill, obviously.

Thanks for the links. Very helpful.