I was called 'Pro-Putin' for just defending Dostoevsky... *sigh* — javi2541997

My suggestion would be, don't waste your time replying to forum members that try to frame you as being partisan. They're not worth your time and effort.

For me, it is clear that Washington is so interested in degrading Russia and pushing EU members against them. A terrible situation for both Europeans and Russians, but not for Americans. Yikes! — javi2541997

Exactly. European and American interests diverge at key points, and the current European leadership is completely incapable of safeguarding those lines.

I was called 'Pro-Putin' for just defending Dostoevsky... *sigh* — javi2541997


My suggestion would be, don't waste your time replying to forum members that try to frame you as being partisan. They're not worth your time and effort.

For me, it is clear that Washington is so interested in degrading Russia and pushing EU members against them. A terrible situation for both Europeans and Russians, but not for Americans. Yikes! — javi2541997


Exactly. European and American interests diverge at key points, and the current European leadership is completely incapable of safeguarding those lines. — Tzeentch

So you are not partisans and yet you have identified the US as the bad guy and the fact that the interest of EU and the US diverge. You constantly repeat that the bad guy is the US, how is that not partisan exactly?

If the interest of the US and the EU diverge, what about the interest of Russia and the EU? Do they diverge or do they converge?

If Ukraine's neutral status were threatened in some other way, we might expect the very same behavior from the Kremlin, especially if no meaningful dialogue takes place. — Tzeentch

Regardless of NATO (and the US)

I never said the Maidan coup was "just a US thing", so I'm not sure what misrepresentation you're talking about. — Tzeentch

A move to democracy against corruption etc

:up: (un-difficult)

I don't use RUTUBE myself; these folk have some unflattering comments:

Outrage in Russia after Putin's speech. Just look at these comments ← re Valdai 2023 Oct 5
^{— MCZ · essanews · Oct 6, 2023}

It's a farce in Russia. They showed maps and everything came to light ← re Sep 30 Russia enlargement
^{— PAB · essanews · Oct 5, 2023}

A takeaway is the crackdowns.

Moldova switches supplier, which might have some economic implications:

Moldova will no longer buy gas from Russia's Gazprom -RIA cites energy minister
^{— Louise Heavens · Reuters via Nasdaq · Oct 2, 2023}

Regardless of NATO (and the US) — jorndoe

The way that you phrased your hypothetical, those other countries would be forming a bloc that would function essentially the same as NATO.

So in that sense it doesn't matter which military bloc or hegemon takes the role of NATO and US respectively, assuming of course there's a credible threat of Russia being kicked out of Ukraine permanently.

A move to democracy against corruption etc — jorndoe

That's a bit of a rose-coloured way of imagining things.

Having the US assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs design the government hardly seems democratic to me. I also wonder how much of that 5 billion was spent on bribes. :sweat:

Similar to what's come up before, suppose that Ukraine had ... ▸ declared neutrality with respect to international military alliance memberships, formally on paper / constitutionally; ▸ retained right to self-defense, e.g. from invaders (shouldn't be controversial), including foreign training and/or weaponry as the case may be; ▸ explicitly stated that others respect sovereignty, self-determination, freedom to seek own path (shouldn't be controversial); ▸ actively pursued EU membership, and perhaps sought other such cooperation ... Something along those lines.

The question is what might we then have expected from the Kremlin. Seems like they covered their bases, but what might have transpired then? — jorndoe

I gave a pretty elaborate response to this question, by the way:

Pre-2014, some sort of commitment to neutrality backed up by action could have probably avoided this war.

War became virtually inevitable when Washington expressed its wishes to incorporate Ukraine into NATO, and then backed up that intention by supporting a coup and by starting to train and arm the Ukrainians.

Even if NATO membership was being held off, the Russians feared Washington would create a fait accompli when it started arming the Ukrainians to such an extent that in time the Russians wouldn't be able to object.

The importance of Ukraine is especially tied to Crimea and Sevastopol. Ukraine entering a rival military alliance would mean Russian access to the Black Sea and its strategic partners could be cut off at any point in time. It had a long-term lend lease deal, which Ukraine could simply cancel and then it would be up to Russia to invade, which would at that point be completely unfeasible.

Everybody involved at the political level is (or should be) aware of this, which is why Washington's attempt to change Ukraine's neutral status in 2008 and 2014 should be seen as a deliberate attempt at escalation.

EU membership may be a difficult point. The EU isn't a military alliance, but the Europhiles in Brussel certainly fantasize about turning the EU into a 'United States of Europe', with a European army, etc., which would essentially create the same situation as if Ukraine would join NATO. One could argue that such a situation is far away, but the nature of geopolitics is long-term.


Right now it will be very difficult to come to a peace agreement, since trust between Russia and the West has been completely shattered (it should be attempted regardless).

Russia is not going to return the territories it now occupies, simply because the trust isn't there to leave Crimea in the same vulnerable situation that it was in. That was the point of their invasion. And it is unlikely Ukraine (and Washington) would agree to a peace deal that doesn't return territory.

The harsh truth is that the rest of Ukraine is only of marginal importance to Russia and Washington, and it will likely end up being the pawn in the geopolitical game for years to come. I only see things getting worse for Ukraine. — Tzeentch

War became virtually inevitable when Washington expressed its wishes to incorporate Ukraine into NATO, and then backed up that intention by supporting a coup and by starting to train and arm the Ukrainians. — Tzeentch

Why “virtually inevitable”? Why do you keep calling it “coup”? If Washington supported a coup, who else organised the coup?

Even if NATO membership was being held off, the Russians feared Washington would create a fait accompli when it started arming the Ukrainians to such an extent that in time the Russians wouldn't be able to object. — Tzeentch

So the Russian fears are the only ones we should care about if we want to talk about the genesis (and responsibilities?) of the war, not the fears of Ukraine, not the fears of Eastern Europeans, not the fears of Washington about Russia’s hegemonic ambitions. Why is that?
What evidences do you have to support the claim that Russia’s fears were about “Washington would create a fait accompli” despite the fact that “NATO membership was being held off”?
Is it another educated guess?
What would support Russian belief that “Russians wouldn't be able to object”? They kept objecting against NATO enlargement since the collapse of Soviet Union, and they had as leverage allies (Hungary), appeasing partners (Germany), a prominent NATO-averse country (France) and cooperative rivals (Turkey), lots of commodity business with the West, an international reputation that wasn’t as compromised as that of Washington, a US distracted with internal issues and China, AN ENTIRE populist political front in Europe and especially in the US sympathising with Russia, a nuclear arsenal to spend in case of aggression from enemies? Weren't Russians aware of these assets? So why all this fear if NATO was never as weak as it was before starting this war?
Why do you keep talking about FEARS and not OPPORTUNITIES for hegemonic expansion?

The importance of Ukraine is especially tied to Crimea and Sevastopol. Ukraine entering a rival military alliance would mean Russian access to the Black Sea and its strategic partners could be cut off at any point in time. It had a long-term lend lease deal, which Ukraine could simply cancel and then it would be up to Russia to invade, which would at that point be completely unfeasible. — Tzeentch

What evidences are there to support the claim that “The importance of Ukraine is especially tied to Crimea and Sevastopol“? If this was the case why didn’t Russia negotiate Ukraine’s NATO membership for Russia’s control over Sevastopol and Crimea (or independent Crimea)?
Besides Russian access to the Black Sea and its strategic partners is not cut off if they lose Sevastopol, indeed they have other ways to access the Black Sea as much as when Baltic ex-USSR Republics joined NATO, this didn’t cut off Russian access to the Baltic Sea because Russians have other ways to access it.

Everybody involved at the political level is (or should be) aware of this, which is why Washington's attempt to change Ukraine's neutral status in 2008 and 2014 should be seen as a deliberate attempt at escalation. — Tzeentch

Or a deliberate defensive move solicited by Ukrainians against a overly jealous historical oppressor.

EU membership may be a difficult point. The EU isn't a military alliance, but the Europhiles in Brussel certainly fantasize about turning the EU into a 'United States of Europe', with a European army, etc., which would essentially create the same situation as if Ukraine would join NATO. One could argue that such a situation is far away, but the nature of geopolitics is long-term. — Tzeentch

Sure, but why do we have to care only about Russia’s security concerns apparently only grounded on their fears and nothing else? If we reason EXCLUSIVELY in terms of perception (why should we?!), then we can talk EXCLUSIVELY of perceived threats for the West posed by a overly jealous regional power with the imperialist history and military capacity of Russia too, right?
If yes how do you want to make them to coexist?
Ukraine should exist only as a buffer state and its foreign policies should be established and negotiated between Washington and the Kremlin? Is that what your educated guess suggests?
Cool, do you have any historical examples of buffer states that function as you suggest? Pls start with Russian history.

The harsh truth is that the rest of Ukraine is only of marginal importance to Russia and Washington, and it will likely end up being the pawn in the geopolitical game for years to come. I only see things getting worse for Ukraine. — Tzeentch

The other harsh truth is that the Ukrainians have to decide whom to side with. And this is what normally pawns don’t nor can’t do. Right?



Pls destroy my objections one by one as only you can. I beg you on my knees.

So you are not partisans and yet you have identified the US as the bad guy and the fact that the interest of EU and the US diverge. You constantly repeat that the bad guy is the US, how is that not partisan exactly?

If the interest of the US and the EU diverge, what about the interest of Russia and the EU? Do they diverge or do they converge? — neomac

Ha! This is funny, you feel bothered because we identify American interests as not reliable, yet you are completely free to not trust Russian objectives. If you read your arguments deeply, you are agreeing with me indirectly. I said a lot of times in this thread that some users just call me 'troll' or 'Pro-Russian' for having a more neutral position and trying to understand the behaviour of Putin. Doesn't this position make you be a partisan of the Western world? Why do we trust in America and not in Russia when the latter is closer to our interests and reality? At least Russia never applied tariffs to Spanish products.

On the other hand, the interests of Russia and the EU are absolutely legitimate. You are the ones who have always seen them as enemies, not us. Nonetheless, the weak leadership of the EU has conditioned a greater presence of Washington in the ambitions of a utopian relationship with Russia. Due to the - obliged - block to Russia, the middle-class of Europe has suffered an increase in their cost of life, because Russia was the main supplier of oil and gas. The partisans of the Western world say that we don't have to buy Russian natural resources because they are evil. But hey! Let's buy oil and gas from Algeria and Qatar, countries where free expression doesn't exist and women are objects. Why don't we block them as well? It is easier to see the world in your bubble from Washington.

The issue that bothers me the most is how we are wasting resources and time on nothing. Just to satisfy the caprices of a few. Russia is ready to end this war, but for unknown reasons, Ukraine and some - the UK and USA - don't want to.

Ha! This is funny, you feel bothered because we identify American interests as not reliable, yet you are completely free to not trust Russian objectives. If you read your arguments deeply, you are agreeing with me indirectly. I said a lot of times in this thread that some users just call me 'troll' or 'Pro-Russian' for having a more neutral position and trying to understand the behaviour of Putin. Doesn't this position make you be a partisan of the Western world? Why do we trust in America and not in Russia when the latter is closer to our interests and reality? At least Russia never applied tariffs to Spanish products. On the other hand, the interests of Russia and the EU are absolutely legitimate. You are the ones who have always seen them as enemies, not us. — javi2541997

Dude, again, you didn’t read much of what I wrote in this thread. I never claimed to be not partisan. I never claimed to be impartial. I am pro-US, pro-NATO, pro-West, OF COURSE. And have always DECLARED it and I’ve always argued ALSO in terms of picking a side. But I always take this to be understood primarily in relative and conditional terms (e.g. in the current situation, given the geopolitical power relations what’s the lesser evil, side with the US or with Russia?). So it doesn’t bother me at all to be called pro-US, pro-NATO, pro-Western, and that is also why I do not need your permission to call you pro-Russians after reading your arguments. What may bother me is to be accused of being fooled by pro-Western propaganda. My reasons do not depend on pro-Western propaganda but on my understanding of geopolitics, history and personal preferences.
Claiming to be “more neutral position” and “the latter is closer to our interests and reality”, independently if you are right or wrong, point to the fact that you can not call yourself neutral, or impartial, or non-partisan. And the point that your ideas so cheerfully overlap with those of Tzeench, suggests that his views are partial and partisan as well.

The partisans of the Western world say that we don't have to buy Russian natural resources because they are evil. But hey! Let's buy oil and gas from Algeria and Qatar, countries where free expression doesn't exist and women are objects. Why don't we block them as well? It is easier to see the world in your bubble from Washington. — javi2541997

Because the West understands power relations more than the popular propaganda of freedom and democracy in the West suggests to people with a naive understanding of both power relations and Western propaganda. And Qatar and Algeria are not hegemonic powers threatening the West as Russia is doing.

The issue that bothers me the most is how we are wasting resources and time on nothing. Just to satisfy the caprices of a few. Russia is ready to end this war, but for unknown reasons, Ukraine and some - the UK and USA - don't want to. — javi2541997

The reasons are not that unknown: Ukrainian will to fight on one side, on the other bog down Russia in their own mess if Russia can not or should not be defeated militarily, on the American side. Russia is ALWAYS ready to peace if it’s on its own terms, of course. Also Ukraine and the US are ALWAYS ready for peace if it’s on in their own terms, of course.

War became virtually inevitable when Washington expressed its wishes to incorporate Ukraine into NATO, and then backed up that intention by supporting a coup and by starting to train and arm the Ukrainians. — Tzeentch

And running drills, and “reaffirming” the commitment to Bucharest in 2021, etc.

Funny that it’s so difficult to understand the reaction from Russia when US responses in a similar scenario would go unquestioned.

“Putin evil” doesn’t allow it, I guess.

And Qatar and Algeria are not hegemonic powers threatening the West. — neomac

Iraq and Vietnam either, but we destroyed their structures and created a big division amongst their citizens. Do you perceive the hypocrisy of the Western now?

I respect your love and commitment to the Western world. Who am I to say that you are wrong? I wish some would have the same empathy and respect for other cultures and preferences... Yet, sorry to accuse you that you have been brainwashed by the Western media to dislike Russia and everything related to East Europe. It is funny when our journalists - my circus country included, for sure! - are obsessed with showing how evil Putin is. He is attacking the sovereignty of Ukraine! - whilst nobody cared about Georgia back in 2008 - and he is a dictator because he poisoned his political rivals - whilst Ukraine doesn't even recognise gay marriage, but hey, they deserve to be part of EU membership and Western civilisation.

Furthermore, are you aware of how the UK acted against IRA members in N. Ireland back in the 1970s and 1980s? Do you really think that's a moral and legitimate way to proceed? The 1981 Irish hunger strike left ten young boys dying for starvation due to their hunger strike. Margaret Thatcher showed zero empathy for them and zero respect for their deaths. Could you imagine the hypocrisy if this happened in Russia?

I ask you: Why didn't the world condemn - or block - the United Kingdom for such abominable behaviour?

That's the Western world you love and care for...

The way that you phrased your hypothetical, those other countries would be forming a bloc that would function essentially the same as NATO. [...] — Tzeentch

Except it wouldn't. There'd be no NATO expansion involved for example (as linked), but rather a "defense agreement" involving "whoever" (perhaps including China). Okie, so, in this case, we wouldn't expect much difference from the Kremlin from what we're seeing today. (?)

That was the second of the two cases, the first didn't include such an agreement. What might we then have expected from the Kremlin?

[...] I also wonder how much of that 5 billion was spent on bribes. :sweat: — Tzeentch

Wonder away. As linked, the Ukrainians were and are looking to Europe rather than Putin's Russia, and are in the process of fulfilling EU membership requirements (despite invasion + being attacked) — democracy, ongoing efforts, hard work. At one extreme, declaring Kyiv a CIA puppet is misrepresentation, for example.

There have been quality elections in Ukraine since 2014, and they might have been hard to digest for the Kremlin. — Oct 5, 2023

Anyway, nothing new, these repetitions make things a bit trite.

EDIT: better links

Iraq and Vietnam either, but we destroyed their structures and created a big division amongst their citizens. Do you perceive the hypocrisy of the Western now? — javi2541997

No. The American intervention in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan can be questioned from the American national interest point of view too. Yet the US has so far been the greatest hegemonic power, so we should expect that it reasons and acts as such. And commits awful mistakes as only great powers can do. Yet the US hasn’t been an oppressive hegemon for Western and pro-Western countries (European countries, Japan, South Korea, Canada, Australia) as much as Russia was at the time of Soviet Union (that's why when it collapsed, the Eastern European countries tried to join the West) and now against Ukraine. So much as so that despite the Vietnam war Vietnamese prefer to military ally with the US against China than to ally with China against the US: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/09/10/fact-sheet-president-joseph-r-biden-and-general-secretary-nguyen-phu-trong-announce-the-u-s-vietnam-comprehensive-strategic-partnership/

I respect your love and commitment to the Western world. — javi2541997

That's the Western world you love and care for — javi2541997

I don’t love the Western world. I simply prefer to live as an avg Westerner than an avg Russian, Chinese, Iranian, North Korean. You?

Who am I to say that you are wrong? — javi2541997

Yet, sorry to accuse you that you have been brainwashed by the Western media to dislike Russia and everything related to East Europe. — javi2541997

No need to worry… you would just be a nobody saying to another nobody who doesn’t care about your opinion, he’s wrong or brainwashed. So say whatever makes you happy.
The bother I feel when I’m accused of being brainwashed is just part of an intellectual game, nothing I take personally.

I wish some would have the same empathy and respect for other cultures and preferences... — javi2541997

As far as I’m concerned, it’s not possible to have the entire world respect the entire world always at the same time under whatever condition, if that means to let others do whatever they feel like doing. So my belief vs your belief.

It is funny when our journalists - my circus country included, for sure! - are obsessed with showing how evil Putin is. He is attacking the sovereignty of Ukraine! - whilst nobody cared about Georgia back in 2008 - and he is a dictator because he poisoned his political rivals - whilst Ukraine doesn't even recognise gay marriage, but hey, they deserve to be part of EU membership and Western civilisation. — javi2541997

I personally don’t give a shit if Ukraine recognises gay marriages. I simply find dangerous for our standard of life to give oppressive authoritarian regimes with hegemonic ambitions the opportunity to destabilise the Western World. And Russia benefited from the Pax Americana SIGNIFICANTLY MORE than it got damaged by NATO/West/US messing in its Ukrainian backyard. Indeed if it didn’t benefit that much, it wouldn’t dare to aggress Ukraine the way it did.

Furthermore, are you aware of how the UK acted against IRA members in N. Ireland back in the 1970s and 1980s? Do you really think that's a moral and legitimate way to proceed? The 1981 Irish hunger strike left ten young boys dying for starvation due to their hunger strike. Margaret Thatcher showed zero empathy for them and zero respect for their deaths. Could you imagine the hypocrisy if this happened in Russia?
I ask you: Why didn't the world condemn - or block - the United Kingdom for such abominable behaviour? — javi2541997

The difference would still be that you can whine over Western hypocrisy against the British government and build a political protest over it, try to do the same in Russia.

Your rant about Western hypocrisy or lack of empathy doesn’t impress me.
Probably I and you hold non-shared assumptions about the relation between politics and morality (which I discussed a while ago in this thread). I’m most certainly sure that neither me nor you nor anybody in this thread nor anybody in the world nor any politician in the entire human history has a fucking clue on how to fix the world, bring justice for the entire humanity for ever and ever, even with the bestest intentions. So, as you can guess, my expectations about politicians by default are already very low as morality is concerned.

I don’t love the Western world. I simply prefer to live as an avg Westerner than an avg Russian, Chinese, Iranian, North Korean. You? — neomac

Well, they have a good economic and beautiful cities, culture, museums, etc. Maybe I will give it a chance in the future. Who knows? What I am sure about is that I will not go to Mississippi or Ohio. I don't want to get shot by police officers just for being Hispanic.

The bother I feel when I’m accused of being brainwashed is just part of an intellectual game, nothing I take personally. — neomac

My aim is not to attack you, but to show evidence and arguments to open your eyes. There can be other data, reality, facts, circumstances. The world is more complex than just put the finger on Russia and accuse them of everything. I want to know the truth, and it seems that the Western media is far from telling me so.

I personally don’t give a shit if Ukraine recognises gay marriages. — neomac

But they want to be part of the Western World, not the East!

The difference would still be that you can whine over Western hypocrisy against the British government and build a political protest over it, try to do the same in Russia. — neomac

You didn't understand anything of what I wrote... There were a lot of Irishmen who tried to criticise the hypocrisy and abuse of British politics, but they ended up dying of starvation or in jail... So the abuse of governments happens everywhere, not only in Russia. But we only feel astonished when they are the ones one who act in such a way.

I don’t love the Western world. I simply prefer to live as an avg Westerner than an avg Russian, Chinese, Iranian, North Korean. You? — neomac


Well, they have a good economic and beautiful cities, culture, museums, etc. Maybe I will give it a chance in the future. Who knows? What I am sure about is that I will not go to Mississippi or Ohio. I don't want to get shot by police officers just for being Hispanic. — javi2541997

I don’t talk about tourism, I don’t talk about giving a chance. I talk about living your life as an avg person in Western countries vs in one of those authoritarian countries. Which one do you personally prefer?

I want to know the truth, and it seems that the Western media is far from telling me so. — javi2541997

Good luck.

I personally don’t give a shit if Ukraine recognises gay marriages. — neomac

But they want to be part of the Western World, not the East! — javi2541997

Gay marriage is not accepted even in Italy.

The difference would still be that you can whine over Western hypocrisy against the British government and build a political protest over it, try to do the same in Russia. — neomac


You didn't understand anything of what I wrote... There were a lot of Irishmen who tried to criticise the hypocrisy and abuse of British politics, but they ended up dying of starvation or in jail... So the abuse of governments happens everywhere, not only in Russia. But we only feel astonished when they are the ones one who act in such a way. — javi2541997

You can counter claims I made, not the ones I didn’t. Governments can be abusive and oppressive, the UK was an empire so they also have a past and more recent history of oppression. But so fucking what? Let me help you with your pointless argument: everywhere is the same shit. All politicians are evil nazi pedophiles and cannibals especially the Western politicians, Biden is twice worst than Hitler and Stalin and Gengis Khan together. And all human beings are shitty selfish coward useful idiots, Westerners worst of all. Now the question remains: I still prefer to live as an avg Westerner than an avg Russian, Chinese, Iranian, North Korean. You?
And to stay with your historical reference: I still prefer to live as an avg English or Irish in Tatcher's era than an avg Russian, Chinese, Iranian, North Korean. You?

FYI, EU and NATO as of 2022 ...



Ukraine is currently seeking membership of both, with encouragement from / support of most (a couple or so are uncertain). As far as the war goes, Ukraine has overwhelming UN support. There's a bit that the Kremlin ignores or wants to undo.

Things have taken some U-turns. [...] — Oct 13, 2022

still prefer to live as an avg English or Irish in Tatcher's era than an avg Russian, Chinese, Iranian, North Korean. You? — neomac

Would you rather be a middle-class person in Russia or in a PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain) country? That's the question we should care about, and how we can understand if some countries are worthy of living in, and others don't. It is not the Anglo-Saxon world only.

Gay marriage is not accepted even in Italy. — neomac

But then why do our Western media only focus on Russian abuse of gay people and not on Italy? Don't you really perceive the hypocrisy I am talking about?

I don’t talk about tourism, I don’t talk about giving a chance. I talk about living your life as an avg person in Western countries vs in one of those authoritarian countries. Which one do you personally prefer? — neomac

I know a lot of people who are happy and find their lives satisfied living in China, for example. It is a country with a lot of opportunities. Before this useless war, Moscow was an interesting city for a lot of international stakeholders. Oh, one thing, they are not authoritarian just because the law is effective in their countries. I promise I want to try to live there for a while. Would you do the same in Romania or the South of Spain? Again, the Western World is not only the UK and US. :smile:

Your conclusion: Most countries are rubbish regarding the treatment of their citizens, but for unclear reasons, the Western world is more attractive than the East because *insert a senseless argument*

still prefer to live as an avg English or Irish in Tatcher's era than an avg Russian, Chinese, Iranian, North Korean. You? — neomac


Would you rather be a middle-class person in Russia or in a PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain) country? That's the question we should care about, and how we can understand if some countries are worthy of living in, and others don't. It is not the Anglo-Saxon world only — javi2541997

.

PIGS, OF COURSE. You? And why is this the question I should care about?
I’m living and lived in several Western countries, and am pro-West, not specifically pro-Anglo-Saxon World. I don’t particularly like the Anglo-Saxon World, at all. Still prefer it over Russia, China, Iran and North Korea.

Gay marriage is not accepted even in Italy. — neomac


But then why do our Western media only focus on Russian abuse of gay people and not on Italy? Don't you really perceive the hypocrisy I am talking about? — javi2541997

The hypocrisy you perceive as many (but not necessarily all) double standards accusations are either irrelevant or unjustified to me. I don’t take politicians to be morally committed to Universal Justice as their rhetoric may suggest to naive people like you. And in geopolitics, one doesn’t treat actual or potential allies in the same way it treats actual or potential enemies, OF COURSE. I find this arguably VERY MUCH rational.
As far as I’m personally concerned, I too am partial and perfectly fine to be. I’m particularly disturbed by military nuclear powers with an authoritarian regime, historically infamous for being oppressive, and with such hegemonic ambitions to invest its accumulated resources by doing business with the West to economically blackmail, corrupt and intoxicate the political environment in the West, cultivate political hatred and revanchism against the West domestically, and go to war against Western countries instead of improving economic, political and social well-being of its own people at large. This is the reason you have to address with your bestest arguments, if you have any.

I don’t talk about tourism, I don’t talk about giving a chance. I talk about living your life as an avg person in Western countries vs in one of those authoritarian countries. Which one do you personally prefer? — neomac


I know a lot of people who are happy and find their lives satisfied living in China, for example. It is a country with a lot of opportunities. Before this useless war, Moscow was an interesting city for a lot of international stakeholders. Oh, one thing, they are not authoritarian just because the law is effective in their countries. I promise I want to try to live there for a while. Would you do the same in Romania or the South of Spain? Again, the Western World is not only the UK and US. :smile: — javi2541997

I traveled a lot around the world and also in authoritarian countries, I’ve a large network of personal and professional acquaintances around the World including from authoritarian regimes. I’m living and working in a multi-ethnic environment. I myself come from a foreign immigrant family and married with a foreigner (from a non-Western country).
Again, I’m not talking about privileged people, nor about the ability to live (happily or unhappily) in a country, nor about OTHER people, I’m asking you if YOU would prefer to live as an AVG person in China, Russia, Iran or as an AVG person in a Western country, let’s say, Spain, WHATEVER YOUR understanding of life in these countries is and whatever parameters YOU find relevant to assess life standards.

Your conclusion: Most countries are rubbish regarding the treatment of their citizens, but for unclear reasons, the Western world is more attractive than the East because *insert a senseless argument* — javi2541997

“Do you prefer X or Y?” and “give me the reasons why you prefer X over Y?” are two different questions. I just asked you the first and you still didn’t answer, while I answered the same questions I addressed to you and your questions too.

Still prefer it over Russia, China, Iran and North Korea. — neomac

Why are you always obsessed with these four countries? I agree that Iran and North Korea need to change in some areas, but Russia and China are inspiring models. Two main reasons for my argument:
1. They have economic stability, and they are important in the financial scene. Russia is the main supplier of oil and gas, and China the supplier of... everything. Imagine if they were not being banned or blocked by the westerners, they would be superpowers.
2. They do not have immigration problems or cultural conflicts. They are well known for keeping aside illegal immigration, and it is very difficult to establish ghettos in their cities. It is important to keep the cities safe. Are you going to ignore the illegal immigration problem in Europe too?

I’m particularly disturbed by military nuclear powers with an authoritarian regime... — neomac

This is outrageous. As far as I know, the USA - king of the westerners - is the only nation who dropped nuclear weapons on another nation: Japan. Or do you think that the Japanese deserved it because they were ruled by Hirohito?

I’m asking you if YOU would prefer to live as an AVG person in China, Russia, Iran or as an AVG person in a Western country, let’s say, Spain, WHATEVER YOUR understanding of life in these countries is and whatever parameters YOU find relevant to assess life standards. — neomac

Yes.

Again, I’m not talking about privileged people, nor about the ability to live (happily or unhappily) in a country, — neomac

My arguments were not written in this direction, but I am perceiving that you want to twist them. Are you looking for evidence and data? OK, I will show you, despite the fact that you will not take them into account, because if they show high standards in those countries, you will not believe it...

Moscow: Gross Regional Product: €281billion / (€22205 per capita) The city has over 40 percent of its territory covered by greenery, making it one of the greenest cities in the world. Moscow has one of the largest municipal economies in Europe and it accounts more than one-fifth of Russia's gross domestic product (GDP). Overall, economic stability has improved in recent years. In 2019 the Economist Intelligence Unit's Worldwide Cost of Living survey put Moscow to 102nd place in the biannual ranking of 133 most expensive cities. There are 1,696 high schools in Moscow, as well as 91 colleges. The Moscow Metro is a world leader in the frequency of train traffic—intervals during peak hours do not exceed 90 seconds. The Moscow Metro is also the first and only one in the world to switch to this schedule. In February 2023, Moscow was the first in the world to reduce the intervals of metro trains to 80 seconds. It is the third metro system in the world (after Madrid and Beijing), which has two ring lines.
Moscow

It seems to me a pretty and attractive city to live in...

They have economic stability, and they are important in the financial scene. — javi2541997

Do they? How are you measuring this?

Russia is the main supplier of oil and gas, and China the supplier of... everything. Imagine if they were not being banned or blocked by the westerners, they would be superpowers. — javi2541997

China is already a great power. Russia isn't and won't become one. Just selling your oil and gas doesn't turn you into a great power.

They do not have immigration problems or cultural conflicts — javi2541997

Yeah this is straight up bullshit. Chechnya? The Uighurs?

They are well known for keeping aside illegal immigration, and it is very difficult to establish ghettos in their cities — javi2541997

That noone particularly wants to move to Russia is not an argument in its favour. There's certainly illegal immigration into China, but China is so big that it's not as noticeable and there's not much information easily available on the scale.

It is important to keep the cities safe. — javi2541997

Have you actually looked at crime statistics?

This is outrageous. As far as I know, the USA - king of the westerners - is the only nation who dropped nuclear weapons on another nation: Japan. — javi2541997

And now look at Japan today and wonder why it's still such a successful country.

It seems to me a pretty and attractive city to live in... — javi2541997

Just don't live in a building where you could accidentally fall out the window to your death.

And now look at Japan today and wonder why it's still such a successful country. — Echarmion

We have a user here who backs up the nuclear attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I will not waste my time on answering you in the rest of the comments because I already did it to neomac, and you are ill-mannered for diving in other people's business.

[

We have a user here who backs up the nuclear attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I will not waste my time on answering you in the rest of the comments because I already did it to neomac, and you are ill-mannered for diving in other people's business. — javi2541997

So you don't care to back up your claims and instead make a pathetic and unfounded attempt at ad-hominem?

I consider this an admission of defeat on your part.

Just don't live in a building where you could accidentally fall out the window to your death. — Echarmion

In Russia political opponents fall out of windows. In the US they get shot in broad daylight.

Pick your poison, I suppose.

The advantage is that the magical bullets are harder to acquire, so unless you're about to uncover the CIA's secret moon base where they experiment on aliens you're pretty safe.

Damn, I shouldn't have said that...

In Russia political opponents fall out of windows. In the US they get shot in broad daylight. — Tzeentch

I do not know what is worse, whether poisoning a system to execute an elected president or lying to their own citizenship in everything which is regarded to Kennedy's death.

Or what about using the authorities to execute a human rights lawyer in Northern Ireland? Pat Finucane

The thing that bothers me the most is how western lovers justify those acts by the government because the politicians were 'elected' in a ballot, and they think they live covered by a great umbrella. Not like Xi, he is a bad guy and Putin is even worse because he doesn't have opposition in the Duma.

Still prefer it over Russia, China, Iran and North Korea. — neomac


Why are you always obsessed with these four countries? — javi2541997

Because this is a thread about the war in Ukraine, so I take to be pertinent to talk about the Western involvement in this war as much as the non-Western involvement in this war. China, Iran and North Korea are indirectly supporting Russia and its most ambitious stated goal to establish a new World Order alternative to the Western-led World Order, also through this war.

Russia and China are inspiring models.
Two main reasons for my argument:
1. They have economic stability, and they are important in the financial scene. Russia is the main supplier of oil and gas, and China the supplier of... everything. Imagine if they were not being banned or blocked by the westerners, they would be superpowers.
2. They do not have immigration problems or cultural conflicts. They are well known for keeping aside illegal immigration, and it is very difficult to establish ghettos in their cities. It is important to keep the cities safe. Are you going to ignore the illegal immigration problem in Europe too? — javi2541997

Even if we assume true your questionable claims about Russia and China economic stability or their lack of “immigration problems or cultural conflicts”, it’s not enough. Indeed I talked about AVG standard of life, meaning that it is important to see how public and private resources and services are distributed over the population, how large is the middle class, how easy it is to move from lower classes to higher, etc.

I’m particularly disturbed by military nuclear powers with an authoritarian regime... — neomac


This is outrageous. As far as I know, the USA - king of the westerners - is the only nation who dropped nuclear weapons on another nation: Japan. Or do you think that the Japanese deserved it because they were ruled by Hirohito? — javi2541997

I still take the US as the lesser evil. So much so that even Vietnam and Japan after having suffered a great deal due to past American administrations’ decisions (including something like being nuclear bombed twice), decided to ally with the US.
Besides you chopped my quote, if you hadn’t, you would see that my choice is still consistent even if the U.S. is the only country to have used nuclear weapons on another country. As said elsewhere, I don’t take politicians to be morally committed to universal justice, nor I think there are known effective recipes to grant universal justice, so I limit myself to reason in terms of lesser evil, conditionally and comparatively .

I’m asking you if YOU would prefer to live as an AVG person in China, Russia, Iran or as an AVG person in a Western country, let’s say, Spain, WHATEVER YOUR understanding of life in these countries is and whatever parameters YOU find relevant to assess life standards. — neomac


Yes. — javi2541997

I appreciate your honesty. And I take it as a further (however redundant) evidence of your pro-Russian views. The easiest way for you to permanently migrate to Russia is to volunteer to join the Russian front in Donbas and fight the selfish Ukrainians and evil West/NATO/US to restore justice in this world. Meanwhile I can only wish you to migrate to Russia and be replaced by an illegal immigrant with more favorable views about the West as soon as possible. After what they may have suffered to have the opportunity to live in the West, they most certainly deserve to be part of the West more than you do. Do you agree?

Again, I’m not talking about privileged people, nor about the ability to live (happily or unhappily) in a country, — neomac


My arguments were not written in this direction, but I am perceiving that you want to twist them. Are you looking for evidence and data? OK, I will show you, despite the fact that you will not take them into account, because if they show high standards in those countries, you will not believe it...

Moscow: Gross Regional Product: €281billion / (€22205 per capita) The city has over 40 percent of its territory covered by greenery, making it one of the greenest cities in the world. Moscow has one of the largest municipal economies in Europe and it accounts more than one-fifth of Russia's gross domestic product (GDP). Overall, economic stability has improved in recent years. In 2019 the Economist Intelligence Unit's Worldwide Cost of Living survey put Moscow to 102nd place in the biannual ranking of 133 most expensive cities. There are 1,696 high schools in Moscow, as well as 91 colleges. The Moscow Metro is a world leader in the frequency of train traffic—intervals during peak hours do not exceed 90 seconds. The Moscow Metro is also the first and only one in the world to switch to this schedule. In February 2023, Moscow was the first in the world to reduce the intervals of metro trains to 80 seconds. It is the third metro system in the world (after Madrid and Beijing), which has two ring lines.
Moscow

It seems to me a pretty and attractive city to live in... — javi2541997

If you are arguing in support of your answers to my question “I’m asking you if YOU would prefer to live as an AVG person in China, Russia, Iran or as an AVG person in a Western country, let’s say, Spain, whatever YOUR understanding of life in these countries is and whatever parameters YOU find relevant to assess life standards” then it’s you who is twisting things. As far as I’m concerned, your data do not concern the AVG Russian life standards, I even doubt they are suitable metrics to asses the AVG life standards in Moscow.

Moscow mulling response to EU ban on Russian cars — Russian Foreign Ministry
^{— TASS · Oct 4, 2023}
Kremlin angry at Norway joining EU ban on Russian cars
^{— Charles Szumski · EURACTIV · Oct 5, 2023}

Nazism — Lavrov

Nazism — Zakharova

Yeah, Norway is Nazist. Not. So, for Putin's team, it takes pseudo-paranoia to avoid addressing why that was implemented (by EU, Norway) in the first place.

: "We appreciate your sentiment towards the Old Axis. We will rise again." ;)

, say, there are some marked differences between Kennedy (1917-1963) and Litvinenko (1962-2006). Anything further on those NATO and coup things, by the way?

China, Iran and North Korea are indirectly supporting Russia and its most ambitious stated goal to establish a new World Order alternative to the Western-led World Order, also through this war. — neomac

A fully understandable objective, don't you think? They are free to attempt to get a different type of world. Who are we to stop them? Maybe this is where the conflict could arise. The continuous obsession with implementing how the nations should be and live.

Indeed I talked about AVG standard of life, meaning that it is important to see how public and private resources and services are distributed over the population, how large is the middle class, how easy it is to move from lower classes to higher, etc. — neomac

OK, I see you like the digits I showed, so I will continue to use others as well - they are reliable, don't be shy to accept them - :

Russia: In 2022, the Economist calculated that Russia did graduate into the category of high-income economies by 2022, if counted at purchasing power parity rather than the exchange rate, but could fall below the threshold because of invasion of Ukraine. In December 2022 in a study an economist at the Bank of Russia’s Research and Forecasting Department, finds that the import dependence of the Russian economy is relatively low, does not exceed the median for other countries and the share of imports in most industries is lower than in other countries. The key explanation for this could be the low involvement of the Russian economy in global value supply chains and its focus on production of raw materials. However, 60% of Russia’s imports come from the countries that have announced sanctions against Russia. Russia's expenditure on education has grown from 2.7% of the GDP in 2005 to 4.7% in 2018 but remains below the OECD average of 4.9% A 2015 estimate by the United States Central Intelligence Agency puts the literacy rate in Russia at 99.7% (99.7% for men, 99.6% for women). The Human Rights Measurement Initiative finds that Russia is fulfilling 86.8% of what it should be fulfilling for the right to education, based on its level of income. Russia 1
A member of the middle class is defined as someone who considers themselves ‘above average’ on two or more of the indices.

By this measure, almost 50.8% of all Russian families belonged to the middle class, up from 41.8% in 2000. Check this out!!! https://iq.hse.ru/en/news/276242940.html#:~:text=Russia%E2%80%99s%20Middle%20Class%201%20Between%20the%20rich%20and,for%20its%20active%20use%20of%20paid%20services.%20

After what they may have suffered to have the opportunity to live in the West, they most certainly deserve to be part of the West more than you do. Do you agree? — neomac

Yes.

The easiest way for you to permanently migrate to Russia is to volunteer to join the Russian front in Donbas and fight the selfish Ukrainians and evil West/NATO/US to restore justice in this world. — neomac

Don't push me to death, mate. You will have me around for years defending Russia. We are not done yet. :smile:

I even doubt they are suitable metrics to asses the AVG life standards in Moscow. — neomac

I thought you would not like - or accept - the metrics of Moscow's living standards and economics, even though I made a big effort to share them with you...

That's why I get bothered. Why don't you believe in information related to Russia?

↪Tzeentch, say, there are some marked differences between Kennedy (1917-1963) and Litvinenko (1962-2006). — jorndoe

I'm sure there are. I just sought to point out that the US isn't a stranger to political killings, and wagging the finger at Russia is rather hypocritical.

Anything further on those NATO and coup things, by the way? — jorndoe

I'm not sure what else you expect me to say. I have responded to your questions. If you think something is lacking in my response, it would really help if you would state your questions a bit more clearly.

I'm sure there are. I just sought to point out that the US isn't a stranger to political killings, and wagging the finger at Russia is rather hypocritical. — Tzeentch

Did you take my post as finger wagging? It was intended as a humorous jab.

In any event I think scale does matter.

A fully understandable objective, don't you think? They are free to attempt to get a different type of world. Who are we to stop them? — javi2541997

They are free to attempt it, we are free to attempt to stop it.

Maybe this is where the conflict could arise. The continuous obsession with implementing how the nations should be and live. — javi2541997

Ah, and Russia did not invade Ukraine to "implement how the nation should be and live"? Because as I remember the stated goal is to "denazify and demilitarise".

Don't push me to death, mate. You will have me around for years defending Russia. — javi2541997

So, living in Russia is great and you want to live there. Just not as a Russian because the dictator might send you to the front to die.

Can you see how this is a faintly ridiculous stance to take?

That's why I get bothered. Why don't you believe in information related to Russia? — javi2541997

The information is not the point. It's your argument that's lacking. There's more to life than the number of metro trains.