The other position is that they needn't justify their right to exist any more than any other nation. — Hanover
Jewish guys beat up Palestinian guys and leave them for dead. None of that ever gets into the headlines and it's been like that for decades. — frank
I wonder if things would be better if the good Jewish people would take over the government. — frank
:100: :fire:No serious critic of Israel is going to condone Hamas' targeting of civilians, but understand that the actions committed by Hamas - so often labeled as terrorist - have also been committed twentyfold by the Israeli government, which has indiscriminately killed Palestinian civilians, including children and the elderly, or knowingly murdered journalists and medics [with] impunity. According to UN's OCHA, from 2008-2023 (excluding the October 2023 Conflict) Palestinian causalities exceed Israeli by 21x, while Palestinian injuries exceed Israeli injuries by nearly 24x. It is equally unserious for discussion to exclude this essential context, in addition to the horrific apartheid conditions that Israeli has imposed including severe restriction on travel, an air, sea and land blockade, which placed restrictions on the goods and services that can enter including medical goods and services, food, water and energy. This is an undeniable form of quotidian violence. Furthermore, of the two million Palestinians approximately half are under 19 years old, with over half the entire population living under the poverty line - a direct result of Israel's blockade. What precisely is the onus of responsibility assumed by a territory comprised primarily of minors? — Maw
Who are the good Jewish people you would like to see running the country? That's not a rhetorical question -- really, who/how? I've no doubt that there are Israelis who could do a better job than Netanyahu, but I suppose the dominant coalition in power keeps that from happening. — BC
One can be pro-Israel and still admit a difficult, maybe insoluble problem: the Zionist movement and the creation of Israel as a state displaced the people who had been living under the Ottomans for several hundred years, and under the British a while before 1948. Palestine has changed hands every few centuries over the last 2500 years, so the current transaction fits the long term pattern -- a pattern in which absolutely no one is going to find any comfort. — BC
How does that really help? The assumption that Egypt or any other national entity coming to assistance is highly unlikely, basically only theoretical. Hezbollah boasts having 100 000 personnel, but even that is estimated lower. It has already done it's "solidarity" rocket attack.The assumption is that Hamas has foreign backing. — Tzeentch
As in, now Israel will never get the Muslims to care about them now that they've gone and done this? — Hanover
Seems the strategic angle would be that the Palestinians would try to gain the affection of the Israelies, considering they have the power to destroy them. — Hanover
With the current lock down I don't think foreign backing is relevant. — Benkei
How does that really help? — ssu
I'm not sure the Two-State solution will every come to pass, or if it does, that it will solve many problems. — BC
What is your reasoning to argue that? I think of only a political blessing or perhaps Hezbollah showing "solidarity".The scale and organisation of the attacks seem to suggest some kind of foreign backing. — Tzeentch
Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi and Turkish counterpart Tayyip Erdogan called on Hamas and Israel to immediately end violence and protect civilians.
They don't have to be bled dry. Perhaps the final solution type of answer wouldn't be so great in the minds of Israelis when they have other options.The two-states solution had been made de facto impossible already. It's a good distraction though as everybody can pretend they're still in favour of peace. Which they are but only after the West Bank and Gaza have been bled dry and there's no such thing as a Palestinian any more. — Benkei
Palestinians who immigrate to America say that the Israelis have been abusive on an on-going basis, like collections of Jewish guys beat up Palestinian guys and leave them for dead. None of that ever gets into the headlines and it's been like that for decades.
If not, then moral equivalence would lead to the absurd conclusion that we should be suing former slaves and their descendants for reparations for killing their slave owners in revolt. — Benkei
Being an Israeli citizen and going to a concert does not make you responsible for the policies of the Netanyahu government. — Baden
With the exception that the UK forces, now in hindsight calling a spade a spade and acknowledging that they did fight an insurgency war in Northern Ireland, never applied artillery and fighter bombers to take out homes of suspected IRA leaders. (Although at times they had to resort to supplying their bases with helicopters.) They even have clearly also acknowledged the proxy role that the unionist/loyalist paramilitaries had at times. Yet Thatcher after herself being targeted in a bombing never started a "war" against IRA in the way Isreal (or the US) do. Even if with the Falklands case she did so.This whole brutal mess reminds me of the tit-for-tat killings in Northern Ireland towards the end of the troubles. Both sides degraded themselves utterly. — Baden
But I certainly expect Israel to continue acting the bully as long as they continue to receive military support. Which is why I'd feel better if we'd stop supporting Israel. But even that is a fantasy. The United States will continue to support Israel because of its "special relationship" (strategic place within the world). And Israel will continue to colonize. Given those two truths then the Palestinian has these options: Emigrate, bow, or die. And often times "bowing" results in death -- in which case, barring emigration, one might as well die standing. — Moliere
Your whataboutery doesn't answer the charge of moral untenability. It sidesteps it. You talk as if the mere fact that Israel seeks to justify the killing of civilians makes their opponents' equivalent justifications (and yours) morally tenable. — Jamal
Yes, why should I justify it for one party if the other doesn't and gets all the moral support and best wishes and guns? That doesn't seem like a level playing field to me — Benkei
Even if there were indeed excesses and unlawful actions, the UK usually treated IRA members are criminals, that should be tried in the judicial process. — ssu
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