For the satirically-challenged, I emphasise that this post is intended to be humorous, provocative, and tongue-in-cheek, and has no philosophical value whatsoever. It should not be taken to reflect the views of the forum moderators, supposing that they are sufficiently intellectually developed to have any, and may or may not reflect my own views, to the extent that I am capable of consistently holding any for five minutes together.

I am not a US national and I do not live in the USA. I am an outsider looking in. Considering his record of non-achievement, I am at a loss to understand why Trump appeals to so many American voters. Can somebody explain this to me? He had four years in office, but just look at some of his big-ticket promises, and consider how many he failed to deliver:

- Did the miners go back to work? No.
- Did the wall get built? No.
- Was the swamp drained? No.
- Did the USA win the trade war with China? No.
- Did the US economy boom? No.
- Did his peace plan bring peace to the Middle East? No.
- Did he resolve the Iran question? No.
- Did the US get an infrastructure renewal program? No.
- Did North Korea de-nuclearise? No. (In the aftermath of Trump's "negotiations", they actually accelerated their strategic weapons development program).
- Did the US get a new health-care program? No. (For four years he promised "we'll have something for you in the next few weeks" and, after four years, nothing. Squat).

Mind you, there were some positive achievements:

- Did moving the embassy to Jerusalem increase tensions in the ME? YES!
- Did his trade wars against China and the EU increase consumer prices in the US? YES!
- Did his trade wars against China and the EU reduce US export trade? YES!
- Did his abandonment of the Iran treaty grant Iran a de-facto license to resume nuclear development? YES!

So it isn't all negative.

With a CV like that, how can he NOT be re-elected in 2024? Well, of course, we all know that it will be down to electoral FRAUD ON A MASSIVE SCALE!! The Swamp, the Deep State, the Black Transgender Marxists, are using JEWISH SPACE LASERS to RE-PROGRAM OUR PATRIOTIC ELECTORAL MACHINES!!!!!

Of course, it's always possible that in two hundred years' time, the received historical wisdom will say that Trump was just another Washington suit, with a snake-oil formula, who mouthed and gesticulated, while the real machinery of government - the civil service - worked around him as best it could.

Nobody can deny that, for sheer entertainment value, US politics is the gift that keeps on giving. We are witnessing a Titanic contest: the last of the dinosaurs, faithful to the Constitution of the Founding Fathers, committed to dignity, honesty, courtesy, integrity in government, and at least a token commitment to the values preached by Jesus Christ, versus the modern generation of reality-TV, win-at-any-cost, screw tradition, and utterly amoral...

@alan1000

- Did the miners go back to work? No.
- Did the wall get built? No.
- Was the swamp drained? No.
- Did the USA win the trade war with China? No.
- Did the US economy boom? No.
- Did his peace plan bring peace to the Middle East? No.
- Did he resolve the Iran question? No.
- Did the US get an infrastructure renewal program? No.
- Did North Korea de-nuclearise? No. (In the aftermath of Trump's "negotiations", they actually accelerated their strategic weapons development program).
- Did the US get a new health-care program? No. (For four years he promised "we'll have something for you in the next few weeks" and, after four years, nothing. Squat).

Mind you, there were some positive achievements:

- Did moving the embassy to Jerusalem increase tensions in the ME? YES!
- Did his trade wars against China and the EU increase consumer prices in the US? YES!
- Did his trade wars against China and the EU reduce US export trade? YES!
- Did his abandonment of the Iran treaty grant Iran a de-facto license to resume nuclear development? YES!

So it isn't all negative.

Well, what you forgot is his brilliant achievements on the foreign policy aside.

- The surrender of Afghanistan to the Taliban in the Doha Agreement (Yes, the Taliban promised not to attack the US!)

- The Abraham accords (YES, Bahrain, the UAE, Morocco, Sudan normalized their relations with Israel and promised not to attack it!)

Like I've been saying for a long time, I think you're overestimating his influence on people and underestimating the option that many people are like what you call "inoculated against reality" regardless of Trump.

Oh, and as for "inoculated against reality". Talk about patronizing. It's no wonder the Trumpistas are digging their heels in even more.

I used to know a girl, a flatmate of a friend, who firmly believed 'the news is all made up'. I wondered what she thought was really going on, if the news is all, as DJT insists, fake, but I didn't want to open that can of worms. — Wayfarer

I think we've all known people like that. Unfortunately that group seems to have swollen to significant proportions. I recently saw a podcast wherein Rosanne Barr (yeah, I know) argued that the UN runs a project to kill as many civilians around the world as it can in order to make the planet more habitable for a chosen minority. Covid vax and all manner of nasties are a conspiracy to reduce the population.

Typical q-anon drivel. This is what Trump has helped usher in - the total disregard for fact. He had to, because if he were judged against the facts - which finally appears immanent - his entire schtick would evaporate. He lives in a fantasy world and persuades millions of others to be part of it. Too much television, I say ;-)

Trump recognizes how easily large groups of disaffected people can be galvanized by insinuating paranoiac conspiracies - so he uses it. It's a fairly straight forward transaction. I'm not convinced Trump believes anything at all, except that he should be in charge.

Absolutely. It's amazing how far he's gotten without, I think, any real strategy. I saw an interview recently with an ex-staffer who had been involved in briefing then President Trump on the logistics of the Afghan withdrawal. Of course, he would read absolutely nothing, so this staffer had to put together a Powerpoint which was more or less a comic book, with 'bad guys' and 'us' - Bam! Kapow! - otherwise Trump showed neither any interest nor comprehension (and as we all know now, that sad decision finally fell to Biden.)

He's a little like a cross between a carny barker and Schopenhauer's account of will - blind, striving, instinctive and a teller of whoppers.

Yes, who can forget Sharpiegate.



Beats even the Disinfectant Injection stand-up routine at the COVID briefings.

Anyone saying that Trump voters just hate minorities are ill-informed. Most Americans on either side of the aisle are more same than different. Racists and other extreme groups fall on the right-side, but marxists and other extreme groups fall on the left. There are extremes on both sides.

I will acknowledge the rise of an extreme, or alt right-wing in recent years. I would like to hear people’s thoughts for the cause of this rise. Personally, I think the political correctness and the left-lean in most educational and corporate institutions is causing the reaction from young men who do not wish to comply with their ideology. Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

Anyone saying that Trump voters just hate minorities are ill-informed. — ButyDude

Starting with a straw man is not good form.

Americans on either side of the aisle are more same than different. — ButyDude

Sure, but the problem is they're living in different and increasingly fenced worlds. They no longer have a shared reality.

Racists and other extreme groups fall on the right-side, but marxists and other extreme groups fall on the left. There are extremes on both sides. — ButyDude

But only one sided is rapidly changing the rules of the political game. The US political establishment isn't challenged from the left right now.

I will acknowledge the rise of an extreme, or alt right-wing in recent years. I would like to hear people’s thoughts for the cause of this rise. Personally, I think the political correctness and the left-lean in most educational and corporate institutions is causing the reaction from young men who do not wish to comply with their ideology. Does anyone else have thoughts on this? — ButyDude

A backlash against the new orthodoxy is certainly part of it. But that in itself is not new and doesn't explain why the shift is so extreme.

I think a major factor are new habits of media consumption, via the internet and especially social media. Several effects combine to make messages ever more extreme, thus positions that used to be on the extreme fringe now seem much more normal.

There's also the long term economic factors. Increasing anxiety and alienation from "the elite".

And finally there's the long term strategy of the GOP to focus on a narrow but highly mobilised group of voters which, in conjunction with the internet and especially social media, has resulted in extreme partisanship and estrangement.

I agree with you on the new habits of media consumption, such as social media, and especially the echo chambers. As much as I want to believe that what I believe came from a neutral position, in reality the algorithms of every online media platform have kept myself and even yourself from experiencing legitimate arguments against our beliefs.

It is also intriguing that the political divide is now rural/urban. You are right, urban voters, suburban voters, and rural voters all have extremely different experiences of life. No matter what my political beliefs are, I can’t see myself living in the city and not voting Democrat, because they support these public policies and social programs that are simply necessary to run a city, but nor for a suburb or a rural area.

Thank you for calling me out on the straw man. I should have worded my thoughts more carefully: “Attacking all Trump voters on the basis of a small minority of his voter base is a shallow attack. There are extreme groups of people in each party, which the majority of party voters do not share political beliefs with.”

I will acknowledge the rise of an extreme, or alt right-wing in recent years. I would like to hear people’s thoughts for the cause of this rise. Personally, I think the political correctness and the left-lean in most educational and corporate institutions is causing the reaction from young men who do not wish to comply with their ideology. Does anyone else have thoughts on this? — ButyDude

Mainly that the so-called 'right-wing' or 'extreme conservative' reaction is a massive overreaction. I too get pissed off with political correctness in the media, with things you're supposed to believe about various social and political issues, but I don't think that accounts for the extemism that you see in so-called conservative politics (and I say so-called because a lot of it is quite unlike traditional conservatism).

The world is changing at a faster pace than ever before (this is not hyperbole). And we're reading about and dealing with multiple crises - environmental, political and social. Part of that is that the makeup of US society is becoming more diverse and traditions are breaking down all the time. All this is creating huge anxiety, and one of the consequences is something like panic. Trump knows instinctively how to exploit the politics of grievance - he appeals to the feeling of having been wronged, the dread that Government itself is part of the problem. (That's why every indictment feeds the myth!) But the reality is, almost every single thing Trump says is a lie, and that's not a matter of opinion or 'according to whom?' or 'depends on what you mean'. He's a veritable Yellowstone geyser of mendacity, and his lies pollute the public discourse, lead many people astray, and generally create and promote disorder, division, and distrust within and between people. Sooner he's out of the picture, better for everyone.

I kinda agree with this.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.648653/gov.uscourts.flsd.648653.173.0_1.pdf

That the classified materials at issue in this case were taken from the White House and retained at Mar-a-Lago is not in dispute; what is in dispute is how that occurred, why it occurred, what Trump knew, and what Trump intended in retaining them—all issues that the Government will prove at trial primarily with unclassified evidence.

Interesting.

Intent based on hearsay is not admissable so there should be actual actions and statements from Trump himself unless this is just a reformulation of proof of general intent. As I stated before:

"For general intent crimes juries will be instructed to infer intent from the proof of the act. The federal documents case mostly has general intent crimes I think, as they do not aim at a specific result that mens rea should be aimed at."

So I think it more likely this will be general intent proofs.

Looking into it further, it does say:

But the fact is that the great majority of the allegations in the indictment—including allegations of the defendants’ conduct, knowledge, and intent—turn on evidence contained in the unclassified discovery, not the much smaller set of classified discovery.

And the indictment in several places says:

did corruptly conceal a record, document, and other object, and attempted to do so, with the intent to impair the object's integrity and availability for use in an official proceeding...

... with that "official proceeding" being the grand jury. So it may be that this new court filing is referring to Trump's intent to obstruct and not his intent in taking and keeping the documents in the first place.

Judge Chutkan issues limited gag order for Trump in D.C. Jan. 6 case

U.S. District Judge Tanya S. Chutkan said Monday she will impose a limited gag order on former president Donald Trump in advance of his election interference trial, as requested by prosecutors.

The gag order, she said in a ruling issued from the bench after a hearing, will prohibit all parties from statements “publicly targeting” special counsel Jack Smith, his staff, her staff or “any other court personnel.” Statements about the families of those individuals are “absolutely prohibited as well.”

Even before the order was issued, Trump’s lawyer John Lauro said they would appeal any such order, as it would affect important free speech principles, particularly for a leading candidate for president.

Trump “can argue that this prosecution is politically motivated,” the judge said, but he cannot disparage the prosecutor by calling him a thug or “vilify and implicitly encourage violence against public servants who are simply doing their jobs.”

She is also barring Trump and all parties from making statements about witnesses in the case.

So how long before he defies it?

So how long before he defies it? — Michael

According to the time stamp, I read this 4 minutes after you posted it. It should not come as a surprise that he has not already done so.

You can't disparage a prosecutor in the United States of America, I guess. The mistake is to think that Trump's words, and not their own actions, "implicitly encourage violence against public servants". If they're worried about their own security maybe they should quit being petty tyrants.

You can't disparage a prosecutor in the United States of America, I guess. — NOS4A2

A party to the case can’t if such a gag order has been issued.

I guess one of you MAGA morons will have to murder a judge, prosecutor or prosecution witness in order to convince some court to revoke Seditionist-Traitor-Rapist-Loser1's bail and remand him to pre-trail detention like every other indicted thuggish lowlife. :mask:

It’s not surprising that you’d blame Trump for someone else’s crime, but that’s only because it’s obvious your sense of justice has been perverted a long time ago.

Mr. Trump is a criminal defendant. He is facing four felony charges. He is under the supervision of the criminal justice system. He does not have the right to say and do exactly as he pleases. … No other criminal defendant would be allowed to do so and I am not going to permit it in this case. — Tonya Chutkan, US District Judge, Wash. DC, 16Oct23

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/16/judge-imposes-gag-order-on-donald-trump-in-d-c-trial-00121743

Who's your daddy now, bitch?! :lol:

Hey, MAGA Morons ...

The "Kraken Lady" has just flipped on your cult leader, Criminal Defendant-1, down in Fulton Co., Georgia. :lol: :up:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/19/sidney-powell-guilty-plea-trump-georgia-elections

That makes 2 out of 18 dominoes to fall so far. :clap:

update:

Release the Kraken! (to testify against co-conspirators)

... in reality the algorithms of every online media platform have kept myself and even yourself from experiencing legitimate arguments against our beliefs. — ButyDude

Short life... this 'reality' referenced above. Sometimes to some people. Never every time concerning all people. Reality includes all people during all applicable timeframes.

Gross overgeneralization.

Echo chambers exist. Not all are powered by algorithmic forces. Pick any applicable time period... some people during the timeframe will not be challenging their own thought/belief about the world due to constant reaffirmation. Algorithmic echo chambers feed the confirmation bias of those who personally and totally identify with their worldview. To some people, any questioning of anything they say or do is taken as an assault, attack, or some other affront. This is witnessed by how any and all attempts to be helpful are met with hostility. Cognitive dissonance is more jarring the first time it happens. When reality doesn't match expectations, the ground is fertile for such circumstances to happen. How we accept our mistakes matters most, on my view anyway.

Private small social groups/communities sometimes produce the same results. Most importantly, the algorithms under consideration have not been in the world long enough to have affectively influenced everyone in the manner described in the above quote. That's one strike against.

There are plenty who seek legitimate arguments against their worldview/belief system. I'm one.

No one has been affected by every algorithm. No one is following an algorithm's path all the time. No one is always being influenced by algorithmic forces. Of all the people who've been influenced by the platforms in question, some became aware. Some of those knew the importance of the matter. Some deliberately minimize usage. I do as a proactive corrective measure taken.

Echo chambers are a problem... I grant that much without pause.

Self inspection takes others. None of us can see the flaws in our own worldview. If the only people we allow ourselves to be influenced, effected, and/or affected by are those with whom we already largely agree with, we're already in an echo chamber. If we never seriously consider another's worldview simply because it contradicts our own; if we never sit and seriously consider another explanation of the same set of events, we'll never become aware of any of the possible mistaken belief we hold regarding the world and/or ourselves

Nice decision... Biden campaign has a user account on Trump's platform.

Watch Trump take away the free speech of others...

Very effective move. Just show Trump contradicting himself all the time. One looooong track.

It’s not surprising that you’d blame Trump for someone else’s crime, but that’s only because it’s obvious your sense of justice has been perverted a long time ago. — NOS4A2

How do you square that sentiment with Trump's history of punishing others without honoring their right to redress?

Anyone saying that Trump voters just hate minorities are ill-informed. — ButyDude

Well... not all, but definitely, demonstrably, provably...

Some... many... but not all.