You missed the part where I never denied the contribution of a physical substrate to the production of consciousness. Mind is the function of Brain.You overlooked the part where people equate consciousness with working physical brains. If we started performing brain surgery on you, we might be able to knock out everything associated with your philosophical theory. — Nils Loc
As I noted above, your "dichotomy" is not a part of the Enformationism thesis ; apparently it is a part of your preconception of the Mind/Body duality*1. My thesis is ultimately a Substance Monism -- a la Spinoza*2 -- postulating a single universal Substance/Essence -- a la Plato*3. :nerd:So, all I can say at this point is that there are people a lot smarter than me who do not find the Mind : Energy notion ridiculous. — Gnomon
I'm still lost as to why you don't think it's a false dichotomy. It is parsimonious/orthodox to conclude minds need physical materials to emerge in the universe and to do work. Where any work could possibly occur, you can apply the concept of energy. — Nils Loc
I would have preferred that the scientists involved would have used the word data as well, to make the difference with information clearer.
At the fundamental level, there is no demonstration of 'meaning' or 'intent' or 'determinism' imo.
I can conceive of no meaning, intent, feeling or determinism inherent in processes such as particle spin or quantum fluctuations. — universeness
The lowest level of data (bits) is fundamental — Nils Loc
Yes! :up:The lowest level of data (bits) is fundamental, but not the representation of it. — Nils Loc
And the fundamental element of Information theory (bit) is itself a mathematical ratio : a percentage ranging from 0% to 100% (nothing to everything) — Gnomon
Oh my Gelos. — wonderer1
I'm sorry that "you have no idea what I'm talking about". Maybe praying to Gelos will help. At least you might get a laugh out of it. :rofl:And the fundamental element of Information theory (bit) is itself a mathematical ratio : a percentage ranging from 0% to 100% (nothing to everything) — Gnomon
Oh my Gelos. Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about, and I just got off work, so I'd appreciate it if you could take care of that yourself. — wonderer1
Have you noticed the uncharitable ridicule that has been directed toward and Gnomon, for daring to ask questions that question the material foundations of Consciousness? Materialism/Physicalism/Realism seems to be the most common ideology on this forum. So, Benj and I may be unwelcome interlopers in a clique of back-slapping believers, who give thumbs-up for good gotchas, not for good reasoning. Usually, the animosity is vaguely concealed under a veneer of science ; for example applying the Dunning-Kruger label to those they want to portray as ignorant idiots. I think Benj and I have been as charitable as possible in view of the mean-spirited ad hominem attacks.Assuming you really do know what you are talking about, you lack a principal of charity. . . . Why don't we need to study physics or information theory to understand your philosophy? — Nils Loc
OK. So what is your yammer-free definition of a "bit", in the context of this thread, questioning the relationship between Energy & Consciousness? :smile:That's a lot of yammering to say that you still haven't learned what a bit is. — wonderer1
srevinesu lebaB yrtpolexse si yldwi fo dna si eht ecdirbelsac egdelbaac knwoeldge, a ti. stiltu, tsav erutan, krow eninihtarbmal, sterlet, yreve dezilogtnahna delater, hguorht trohs eht fo lla dna reve taht egroj siulL . noitcif. gnithguoht-vekorphtuo tsecip uoy'er gnirrefer eht dna ytnifni, ot eht yretlib tpecnoc smuaf dna — Nils Loc
And the fundamental element of Information theory (bit) is itself a mathematical ratio : a percentage ranging from 0% to 100% — Gnomon
The short story you're referring to by Jorge Luis Borges is titled "The Library of Babel." It's a famous and widely anthologized work that explores themes related to infinity, knowledge, and the nature of the universe through the concept of a vast and labyrinthine library containing all possible books. In this library, every combination of letters and words, including every book ever written and those that have never been written, exists. "The Library of Babel" is one of Borges' most celebrated and thought-provoking pieces of fiction. — ChatGPT
No worries mate. I wasn't talking about you being hostile. However,'s labeling of my position on Consciousness as a "New Age" religion, is typical of the aggressive defense of an anti-religion & anti-metaphysics world-view. My personal take on the Mind/Body controversy is indeed Meta-Physical and Philosophical, but I avoid bringing Religion into it. So, his attacks on a Straw Man completely miss their target.I'm not attacking you, just doubting. Cheers. — Nils Loc
I got side-tracked from your original question, by push-back from those who feel that sub-atomic Physics and Meta-Physics are inappropriate reference-material for a (linguistic???) philosophical discussion.Could consciousness be a form of energy like the rest? Could the sensation of existing simply be energy organised in a particular relationship to matter, or to it's other forms, or to both? — Benj96
A recent conjecture, called the mass-energy-information equivalence principle, proposed that information is equivalent to mass and energy and exists as a separate state of matter. In other words, stored information has mass and can be converted into energy, and a full hard drive is marginally heavier than an empty one. — SciLight Volume 2022, Issue 9A by Avery Thompson
The total calculated mass of all the information we
produce yearly on Earth at present is 23.3 10-17 Kg. This is extremely insignificant
and impossible to notice. For comparison, this mass is 1000 billion times smaller than
the mass of single grain of rice, or about the mass of one E.coli bacteria [26]. It will
take longer than the age of the Universe to produce 1Kg of information mass. — Melvin Vopson
In terms of digital data, the mass-energy-information equivalence
principle formulated in 2019 has not been yet verified experimentally, but assuming
this is correct, then in not a very distant future, most of the planet’s mass will be made
up of bits of information. Applying the law of conservation in conjunction with the
mass-energy-information equivalence principle, it means that the mass of the planet is
unchanged over time. However, our technological progress inverts radically the
distribution of the Earth’s matter from predominantly ordinary matter, to the fifth
form of digital information matter. — Melvin Vopson
Could consciousness be a form of energy like the rest? — Benj96
Yet the concept of energy derives from experience itself — Julian August
It is very likely that energy is employed by consciousness as consciousness does work or is a result of brain process or the brain doing work. I agree with your conclusion that mind/body duality is very unlikely indeed (at least I think that is your conclusion) but I don't agree with the argument you use to get there. Perhaps I am not fully understanding the logic of your argument.since experience is a part of consciousness and energy (as concept) is abstracted from experience so must it indeed apply to consciousness. — Julian August
Yet the concept of energy derives from experience itself
— Julian August
How do you know this? Which came first, energy or the experience of energy? — universeness
Is it basically that energy has different forms/states, but it all may well come from a single underlying form or state. — universeness
Energy, as a concept, is either derived independently or dependently on experience, energy could very well precede all experiences as I am sure a dualist would think being the case, without that having any bearing on whether the concept of energy were derived a priori. — Julian August
So your follow-up question is a separate issue, you are here referring to the problem of whether time and therewith a rate of time can exist independently of experience, this seems to be the case, it even seems necessary. — Julian August
I agree that nomenclature and definition of terminology is very problematic.Different people and fields uses the same word for different concepts, this sometimes makes these conversations harder than they need to be, yet at the same time these different perspectives will claim that they have the "right" interpretation of what the concept were supposed to mean initially, as has happened with the term "energy" in physics and not without good reasons. — Julian August
Thanks for declaring your position as a dualist. It is not a position I currently assign any credence to, but that is no measure of whether dualism is true or not.I am a dualist, and I believe we are describing that other thing when in physics we are justifying our conclusions for why something X (unobserved) were a sufficient reason for something Y (either observed or unobserved), while our efforts will ultimately be in vain for our descriptions and schematics will never even be anything like that other thing. — Julian August
You seem to interpret Vopson's "premise" as a scenario of "weird" massless Information somehow magically transforming into spooky "information mass". I don't read it that way. I think he was saying that information is naturally converted into "normal mass". Presumably in a manner similar to the way massless Photons convert their Potential energy into the measurable mass we call Matter : E=MC^2.Vopson's paper here reads like a wacky sci-fi premise, projecting an exponential impossibility. How could information mass replace the normal mass of the Earth because of computers, yet register no measurable change? My question would be, where or how does the mass of this information reside in time and space as a physical entity -- what particles carry it? — Nils Loc
That's OK. No apology needed. It's just par for the course on TPF. I appreciate your honest & humble efforts. Some posters seem less than sincere in their supercilious snarky retorts.:up: Am done pestering you and offer an apology to Benj96 for any offense. I just can't understand or follow what is being said. — Nils Loc
Have you come closer to an answer to the question about physically or metaphorically equating Energy & Consciousness? — Gnomon
More important, their catcher for a career that included three MVPs and ten World Series rings.Ever read any quotes from Yogi Berra, the NY Yankees manager — ucarr
"Baseball is ninety percent mental. The other half is physical."If there's gonna be a formal ceremony, "include me out." — ucarr
In practical terms, when considering the mass of a hydrogen atom, you can often neglect the mass of the electron compared to the mass of the proton. The mass of the hydrogen atom is essentially the mass of the proton. — ChatGPT
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.