Theory of mind, horror and terror.

universeness

Some of the individual cases of atrocity being reported from the Israeli/Palestinian horror and the Russia/Ukraine horror, got me thinking about the notions of horror and terror, historically and currently.

A recent (Oct 13) on-line essay by someone called Lincoln Michel, titled, The Vocabulary of fear, describes the difference between horror and terror as:
“Terror is the feeling of dread and apprehension at the possibility of something frightening, while horror is the shock and repulsion of seeing the frightening thing. “
In that essay, a writer of gothic novels called Ann Radcliffe (whose work I do not know,) is quoted as having said:
“Terror and horror are so far opposite, that the first expands the soul, and awakens the faculties to a high degree of life; the other contracts, freezes, and nearly annihilates them.”

Horror or terror imposed on others via some state of mind that an individual perpetrator has, due to some 'madness' or 'mental imbalance' or pathology they have, is one thing, and is bad enough, when it comes to such as serial killers etc, but I am more interested on how those in power, employ such tactics in a very deliberate fashion.

Those who choose to employ horror and terror, to achieve a goal, obviously must believe that such methods can be very successful. Do you think such methods are successful?

I try to put myself in the shoes (I know I can't really) of a loved one, of a victim of terror/horror.
Is my almost automatic reaction of 'Kill Kill Kill the bastards that did this to my loved one!' and 'Kill everything they stand for and represent,' and 'Get revenge!' Exactly what those who use horror and terror want?

Do we need to be educated on the notions and applications of horror and terror, to be able to thwart the use of such tactics to expand and aggravate conflict between peoples?
Do you have any notions about how everyday people could be 'prepared' for dealing with horror and terror tactics?
Do you think that preparing people for such, would do more harm than good?

After my initial thoughts, it seemed so 'correct' to me that the 'kill, kill kill the bastards, and 'I must take total revenge on all they care about!' was what we must learn not to do, if we want to survive as a species.

I also find it interesting that the animal kingdom don't seem to have the revenge pressure that we have.
If a lioness loses her cubs to a male lion who has just taken over the pride, she does not seem to seek vengeance on him? Does anyone know of any example of human style 'vengeance,' being sought by any other species on Earth, other than humans?
Have there been any studies on how/why humans developed this relationship with vengeance than no other species seem to have, to anywhere near the same extent as us?

schopenhauer1

Does anyone know pf any example of human style 'vengeance' being sought by any other species on Earth, other than humans? — universeness

I don’t like your rants against antinatalism, but this is a good topic. As far as I’ve seen in documentaries, common chimps form alliances that are very revenge based. They even bide their time and wait until they have the upper hand in their power.

universeness

↪schopenhauer1

That's ok and that's a right you have, that I fully endorse. I don't hate you but I hate antinatalism, but I also know that I must not hate it, or seek vengeance on those who support it. I need to accept the burden of its existence, and try to only ever use nothing other that my own rationale, against it, and not against the person. Fight the idea and not the person, is probably common ground for both of us.

In your chimp example, is what you describe, only ever 'within a troop hierarchy?' Are there examples of one troop seeking vengeance on another, for some previous sneak attack, in which some chimpanzee young were ripped apart, for example?

schopenhauer1

That's ok and that's a right you have, that I fully endorse. I don't hate you but I hate antinatalism, but I also know that I must not hate it on seek vengeance on those who support it. I need to accept the burden of its existence and try to only ever use nothing other that my own rationale against it and not against the person. Fight the idea and not the person, is probably common ground for both of us. — universeness

:up:

In your chimp example, is what you describe, only ever 'within a troop hierarchy?' Are there examples of one troop seeking vengeance on another, for some previous sneak attack, in which some chimpanzee young were ripped apart, for example? — universeness

I’m going to see if I can pull up some vids..I’m sure someone might beat me to it. Don’t have time now.

universeness

↪schopenhauer1

This 4min video had a strong affect on me, but there are ones that are just as 'terrifying' from the Palestinian side.

But is the reaction of the 4 volunteers in the news clip, exactly what Hamas wanted?
Is my shock what they wanted? Do we need to all react differently to thwart the nefarious bastards on both sides of these horror campaigns. How do we educate the masses to defeat these tactics?

schopenhauer1

↪universeness

Here is this article:
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0705555104#:~:text=Like%20humans%2C%20chimpanzees%20retaliate%20against,and%20are%20therefore%20not%20spiteful.

universeness

↪schopenhauer1

I clicked on the link you provided, and it took me to a PNAS page that had titles/links to many articles and vids on many topics, but I could not find one titled something like ;'chimpanzees retaliate against and are therefore not spiteful' (I just took this from your link above,) Do you have a more direct link?

schopenhauer1

↪universeness

https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.0705555104

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0706166104

universeness

↪schopenhauer1

Thanks for trying again. Your links seemed fine to me, so I investigated a little further. The problem turned out to be at my side. I was connected to TPF using a MacBook pro running the Mojave OP system and it would not connect to the article page, and only to the main PNAS page.
I switched to a Windows 11 based laptop, and it accessed the page with no problems. I probably need to upgrade the Macbook to Catalina or more. I will read the article: Chimps don't just get mad, they get even.

Echarmion

I also find it interesting that the animal kingdom don't seem to have the revenge pressure that we have. — universeness

It's not just a revenge pressure that's notable in humans. Humans have a very acute sense of a) status and b) rules. We react strongly to any subversion of either. It has been shown in various experiments that humans will punish "cheating" even to their own detriment.

It is also I think clearly visible in our social structures, in the way we treat criminals or children.

If I was to offer some plausible sounding evolutionary mechanism, I'd say it's probably related to empathy and the very complex social dynamics we developed. Revenge is a kind of reverse empathy where we wish to punish a transgression by doing something we consider will be painful to the other.

But do note this is a guess which is probably wrong.

I think this is not something we can unlearn, but rather something we must endeavour to notice and (with effort) question.

Joshs

↪universeness

A recent (Oct 13) on-line essay by someone called Lincoln Michel, titled, The Vocabulary of fear, describes the difference between horror and terror as:
“Terror is the feeling of dread and apprehension at the possibility of something frightening, while horror is the shock and repulsion of seeing the frightening thing. “ — universeness

Like a lot of approaches to affect, emotion and mood, this definition doesn’t get beyond circularity. Terror and horror are related responses to a frightening event. But what is fright in itself, apart from the obvious fact that it is produced by something one is afraid of, something perceived as harmful or dangerous, something that makes us want to run away from it? Positing an evolutionary mechanism is not much more illuminating, since it just ignores the experiential
structure of fear in favor of a arbitrary reductionist causality.

A fundamental point about the category of affects which includes fear, anxiety, terror and horror that needs to be brought out is that these emotions result from an interpretive assessment of events. Specifically, we become afraid when an impending event threatens us with the chaos of comprehensibility. It isnt the potential of physical damage in itself that we fear for its own sake , but our lack of predictive control over the implications of this harm.
For this reason fear, terror and horror are relative to our preparedness for making sense of a situation.

universeness

↪schopenhauer1

I also read the study titled 'Chimpanzees are vengeful but not spiteful.'
Very interesting stuff, and the experiments involving access to food with the chimps, were well thought out imo.
From: Chimps don't just get mad they get even, we have:
There is now considerable interest in the evolution of cooperation and punishment in human societies, and there have been a number of efforts to explore the phylogenetic origins of cooperative motives in other primates. Virtually all of the work on other primates has focused on the willingness to provide benefits to conspecifics. In this issue, Jensen et al. turn the tables and examine chimpanzees' propensity to impose sanctions on familiar group members who commit transgressions.

and

The key finding from this experiment is that the chimpanzees were as likely to collapse the table when another chimpanzee had access to the food as when no one had access to the food. Thus, chimpanzees do not seem to retaliate against other chimpanzees simply for getting lucky.

and

However, the chimpanzees were significantly more likely to respond punitively when they were victimized by other chimpanzees than when they were the victims of the experimenter's whims.

and

In this set of experiments, punitive action was cheap and easy. All the chimps had to do was pull a rope, and food fell to the floor. Pulling the rope required little effort, and they did not lose any food themselves. What would they have done if it was more costly to retaliate? Would they have collapsed the table if they lost part of their own food? Would you? Humans have a pretty strong taste for revenge, even when it costs them dearly.

and finally

These experiments demonstrate that chimpanzees are willing to retaliate against those who transgress against them. However, humans take punitive action one step further. We are willing to impose punishment on those who transgress against others, even if we sustain no harm ourselves. For example, people are willing to spend their own money to punish those who make unfair offers in the ultimatum game. In real life, whistle-blowers risk their careers to call attention to corporate wrong-doing, even when they are not harmed directly. This kind of “altruistic punishment” is thought to play an important role in the evolution and maintenance of cooperation in large groups. Punishment of infractions by third parties is not limited to humans; policing plays an important role in the maintenance of cooperation in the highly specialized cooperative societies of social insects. Chimpanzees are clearly willing to retaliate against chimpanzees who steal from them, but would they also police and impose costly punishment on chimpanzees who steal from others?

We seem to have developed much deeper and darker notions of retaliation, compared to other species, such as chimpanzees. I have read some other studies regarding 'fear' and 'terror' as demonstrated in animal species, but I have not yet read any suggestion that any animal species employ the human notion of terror, or are affected by 'horror' as described in the op.

I could offer my choice of quotes and a brief personal summary of the other article: Chimpanzees are vengeful but not spiteful. I will, if you think such might be of use, but it seems to me that the Chimpanzee use of 'vengence' is very localised, and does not ever become 'vendetta.' What is your opinion on this?

universeness

Revenge is a kind of reverse entropy where we wish to punish a transgression by doing something we consider will be painful to the other. — Echarmion

I think this is not something we can unlearn, but rather something we must endeavour to notice and (with effort) question. — Echarmion

I think it's interesting that early theists were so afraid of the human notion of vengeance via terror and horror tactics, that they invented 'vengeance is mine sayeth the lord.'
I think to 'unlearn' such would be unhealthy, as unless the possible consequences of our notions and applications of horror and terror, for all involved, are quite fresh in the human psyche, we think we can control such, and I think history and current examples demonstrate, very clearly, that we cannot.
So yeah, I think you are correct, we must all ask many more questions, and protest a lot more against the use of both tactics.

universeness

For this reason fear, terror and horror are relative to our preparedness for making sense of a situation. — Joshs

I am fine with your descriptions of the issues involved, but do you have any suggestions as to how we all might better deal with the notions of horror/terror/fright, when they are used to manipulate us in such powerful ways? Ways that are demonstrated to us every day, in the news and even in the personal daily lives that many folks experience?

baker

Do we need to be educated on the notions and applications of horror and terror, to be able to thwart the use of such tactics to expand and aggravate conflict between peoples?

Do you have any notions about how everyday people could be 'prepared' for dealing with horror and terror tactics? — universeness

Most people seem to learn that by kindergarden. People are far more resilient than official media are giving them credit for.

What we're seeing on the news is media propaganda. Bear in mind that people (who have experienced or witnessed something terrible) are often coached by the journalist what to say and then the journalist and news editors select a few interviews which then eventually make it to the news. But they dismiss all other interviews where the people don't paint a terrified, horrified enough picture of the events.

Joshs

↪universeness

t do you have any suggestions as to how we all might better deal with the notions of horror/terror/fright, when they are used to manipulate us in such powerful ways? — universeness

Sure, deepen and widen your perspective on the issues that are liable to trigger such emotions. In particular, immerse yourself in the perspectives of those who perpetrate acts that elicit these feelings, so that they become more intelligible and predicable to you.

baker

If a lioness loses her cubs to a male lion who has just taken over the pride, she does not seem to seek vengeance on him? — universeness

Probaly because she understands she is much too weak to be successful against him. Not because she had no sense of vengeance.

Does anyone know of any example of human style 'vengeance,' being sought by any other species on Earth, other than humans?

I've seen cats revenge themselves against humans. I've seen a cat step in to break up an uneven fight/play between dogs. I've seen a cat step in to protect another cat from a human.
Crows team up against a larger bird of prey that hunts young crows.

Events like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Zoo_tiger_attacks
A tigress in a zoo went after the people who teased her.

Vera Mont

Those who choose to employ horror and terror, to achieve a goal, obviously must believe that such methods can be very successful. Do you think such methods are successful? — universeness

Yes, very often, though obviously not always.
You have to distinguish between a single act of terror, or threat of violence, and a long-term, consistent application of fear for control. (See Orwell's 1984) Think, for example of abused children. Terror becomes, for them, not a momentary state of mind, but a staple of their existence: habitual. This is true also of entire peoples under a ruthless dictatorship.

Is my almost automatic reaction of 'Kill Kill Kill the bastards that did this to my loved one!' and 'Kill everything they stand for and represent,' and 'Get revenge!' Exactly what those who use horror and terror want? — universeness

No, and they count on it never coming to pass. Sometimes they're wrong: the Jacobins and Bolsheviks do sometimes act in unison and mobilize the masses, and the results are neither justice nor simple revenge, but pandemonium. People pushed that far down into the darkness of their psyche are capable of anything but reason.
The urge to vengeance seems more compelling to men than to women - on the average. In all the cases of homicide by a long-suffering wife, I've known only one where the abusive husband ended up with multiple stab wounds. Usually, it's just the one gash or shot or hammer-blow, unless he keeps coming. Maybe his car or big screen get smashed, sometimes his clothes cut to ribbons: damage to his property, not his family. Whereas, the men who caught up with fleeing wives and girlfriends on many occasions that I knew of, killed her parents, friends, lover or whoever helped her get away.

Does anyone know of any example of human style 'vengeance,' being sought by any other species on Earth, other than humans? — universeness

The instances I know are of domestic animals taking revenge on humans. I don't mean fighting back or resisting, but biding their time for an opportunity to get back at somebody who wronged them in some way. A horse may nip or side-swipe a rough stable-hand whenever he gets the chance, but won't trample anyone to death except in a blind rage. Cats I've known to do deliberate mischief to a human who offended them, and one of our dogs shat in the middle of our bed after she'd been punished. I've heard of elephants holding a grudge for years against bad handlers, just as they retain affection for good ones. Goat are notorious for butting anyone who has mistreated them, at any opportunity.

After my initial thoughts, it seemed so 'correct' to me that the 'kill, kill kill the bastards, and 'I must take total revenge on all they care about!' was what we must learn not to do, if we want to survive as a species. — universeness

Individually, we have done surprisingly well at letting the law or God carry out our vengeance. In groups, we have much less self-control; in mobs, none at all.

universeness

Most people seem to learn that by kindergarden. — baker

Really? I assume you are not suggesting that 4 year old humans know how to thwart the horror and terror tactics used by nefarious humans.

I've seen cats revenge themselves against humans. I've seen a cat step in to break up an uneven fight/play between dogs. I've seen a cat step in to protect another cat from a human.
Crows team up against a larger bird of prey that hunts young crows. — baker

A tigress in a zoo went after the people who teased her. — baker

Do you think that the examples you offer are scientifically rigorous and are such personal interpretations truly comparable with human notions of horror and terror and how such is manipulated?

universeness

In particular, immerse yourself in the perspectives of those who perpetrate acts that elicit these feelings, so that they become more intelligible and predicable to you. — Joshs

How important do you think it is that all people must do this? based on my op question:

Do you think that preparing people for such, would do more harm than good? — universeness

Joshs

↪universeness

How important do you think it is that all people must do this? based on my op question:
Do you think that preparing people for such, would do more harm than good? — universeness

This is a psychotherapeutic question. It’s like the difference between progressive desensitization to overcome a phobia vs exposing yourself to the frightening event without any prior preparation. The first method can moderate or eliminate the terror, the second can amplify it.

universeness

You have to distinguish between a single act of terror, or threat of violence, and a long-term, consistent application of fear for control. (See Orwell's 1984) Think, for example of abused children. Terror becomes, for them, not a momentary state of mind, but a staple of their existence: habitual. This is true also of entire peoples under a ruthless dictatorship. — Vera Mont

So, how would you defend yourself and others against such?

No, and they count on it never coming to pass. — Vera Mont

I disagree. I think the 'kill kill kill the bastards,' is exactly what those who employ terror and horror tactics intended to invoke. They just don't think the response will/can reach them directly but will achieve the ends they desire.

People pushed that far down into the darkness of their psyche are capable of anything but reason. — Vera Mont

Yes, so how can we learn to recognise when that old result is recurring again and learn how to take wiser action and not respond to horror/terror by terrorising and performing horrific acts?

I've heard of elephants holding a grudge for years against bad handlers — Vera Mont

That's a claim I have always found more interesting than most of the other observations of animal behaviour you offered that you are aware of or have witnessed.

I found this, but I don't know if any serious scientific study on this, has been done:
Researchers believe elephants' good memories are a big part of how elephants survive and why so many live so long (50 to 60 years or more on average). Those who work closely with elephants also have noticed that elephants remember injuries and can hold grudges against those who have hurt them.

universeness

↪Joshs

I never suggested the solutions were easy, but do you think we can, as a species, learn to react more effectively to horror and terror, used by others to create the conflict they want, for their own purposes?

Do you think we are doomed to repeat the same old errors we have made since the claims that Boudica(Boadicea) decided to fight Rome, mainly because she was personally treated very disrespectfully by them and her daughters were raped. Would she have been better to insist that those who raped her daughters be punished accordingly, and take wiser actions than just try to kill kill kill, everything Roman in Britain? Could she have had better results and outcomes, if she had taken wiser actions?
Your worse enemies always come at what you love most, as they are sure that is the best way to make you make big mistakes. Is that not true?

Vera Mont

So, how would you defend yourself and others against such? — universeness

I could not. A national consensus, or at least overwhelming majority, has to make provisions in its peace-keeping and law-enforcement agencies to prevent the rise of dictators. Where a dictator and his enablers have already been put into power, whether by an internal or external force, the average citizen has no defence.

I disagree. I think the 'kill kill kill the bastards,' is exactly what those who employ terror and horror tactics intended to invoke. They just don't think the response will/can reach them directly but will achieve the ends they desire — universeness

This may be true of small, localized acts of terror carried out in anonymously, far from the terrorists' own base of operations. Even there, if their identities and base are discovered - or strongly suspected - the much greater force of retaliatory strike falls on their comrades, family and friends.
How do you figure it works in a dictatorship? The police kick your door down at 4am, drag your parents away after giving you a few whacks with their rifle-butts. Every fibre in your body screams for retribution. Whom do you attack? And with what? And how would that serve the regime?

Yes, so how can we learn to recognise when that old result is recurring again and learn how to take wiser action and not respond to horror/terror by terrorising and performing horrific acts? — universeness

How can you tell if you're about flip out? You can't - or it would never happen.

I found this, but I don't know if any serious scientific study on this, has been done: — universeness

And I hope nobody ever undertakes one. Statistics only, please - no experimentation!!

baker

Really? I assume you are not suggesting that 4 year old humans know how to thwart the horror and terror tactics used by nefarious humans. — universeness

Small children are not yet obsessed with political correctness and denial the way adults tend to be.

Do you think that the examples you offer are scientifically rigorous and are such personal interpretations truly comparable with human notions of horror and terror and how such is manipulated?

It depends on one's agenda, I suppose.

universeness

It depends on one's agenda, I suppose. — baker

Supposition has it's place ..... I suppose.

baker

In particular, immerse yourself in the perspectives of those who perpetrate acts that elicit these feelings, so that they become more intelligible and predicable to you.
— Joshs

How important do you think it is that all people must do this? based on my op question:
Do you think that preparing people for such, would do more harm than good?
— universeness — universeness

The problem with such "preparation" is that the very same people "preparing" others that way are probably also themselves the perpetrators of "horror and terror". Like when kindergarden nurses beat children in order to "teach" them to be kind and not to beat children.

Such preparation could be effective only if the preparer and the prepared would be in a relationship of mutual trust. For the most part, this is not possible, though. So people learn a double moral standard from early on.

baker

Could she have had better results and outcomes, if she had taken wiser actions? — universeness

And what would such "wiser actions" be? Submitting to the Romans?

universeness

I could not. A national consensus, or at least overwhelming majority, has to make provisions in its peace-keeping and law-enforcement agencies to prevent the rise of dictators. Where a dictator and his enablers have already been put into power, whether by an internal or external force, the average citizen has no defence. — Vera Mont

Well, I certainly agree that prevention is better than cure.

This may be true of small, localized acts of terror carried out in anonymously, far from the terrorists' own base of operations. — Vera Mont

Do you not think that just as it's true of local political gangsters like Hamas, it's also true of the economic terrorism and the economic horror employed by an organised globally nefarious, abominably rich elite?

How do you figure it works in a dictatorship? The police kick your door down at 4am, drag your parents away after giving you a few whacks with their rifle-butts. Every fibre in your body screams for retribution. Whom do you attack? And with what? And how would that serve the regime? — Vera Mont

As demonstrated in Nazi Germany or Stalin's Russia or to a lesser extent in Putin's Russia.
The words underlined are the most important, yes. I will try my best to answer. I would want to kill those who took my parents. I know those in power, the main controllers of the regime, are 'ok' with that however. The functionaries who do the horror scenes mean very little to the 'regime' hierarchy. So killing those who did the horror or killing those who they claim to represent, (like the Palestinian citizenry,) should never be the priority. Purse and kill the leaders and their financial backers would be my best and most honest answer but What do I really know about who they are, for sure, I would need a great deal of help.

How can you tell if you're about flip out? You can't - or it would never happen. — Vera Mont

This takes me back to one of my opening questions:

Do we need to be educated on the notions and applications of horror and terror, to be able to thwart the use of such tactics to expand and aggravate conflict between peoples? — universeness

Only by doing something like this, could people be 'trained' to deal with horror and terror, without becoming a horrific terrorist, But this second question still hangs in the air.

Do you think that preparing people for such, would do more harm than good? — universeness

Tom Storm

Is my shock what they wanted? Do we need to all react differently to thwart the nefarious bastards on both sides of these horror campaigns. How do we educate the masses to defeat these tactics? — universeness

Isn't it also showbiz? A snuff movie? Explosions, screams, fire, ruins, dramatic footage of people suffering in the aftermath - this guarantees notoriety, being talked about, filmed, covered by journalists, discussed by taxi drivers, parsed on philosophy fora...

Have there been any studies on how/why humans developed this relationship with vengeance than no other species seem to have, to anywhere near the same extent as us? — universeness

Most of our foundational stories, our religions and myths showcase acts of vengeance, so perhaps we are primed by generations of such storytelling. But I don't find this behavior surprising given our capacity for creativity, story telling, design and forethought - isn't it just the shadow side of human competence? We demonstrate our love of others by offering them care and resources. We demonstrate our hatred of others by wanting to harm them.

180 Proof

↪universeness

It seems horror (i.e. cruelty-betrayal, oppression, dispossession, murder) breeds terror (i.e. anxiety-trauma, vengence, resistance, despair). In many regards, including this one, h. sapiens only differ in degree, not in kind, from other higher mammals.

Individually, we have done surprisingly well at letting the law or God carry out our vengeance. In groups, we have much less self-control; in mobs, none at all. — Vera Mont

:up:

Theory of mind, horror and terror.

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