Do you think one day there will be Jewish presidents of Arab nations? — BitconnectCarlos

Not until they become democratic.

I don't. I think you open the borders of israel to all of the west bank and gaza and you just get busloads of dead jews.
— flannel jesus

I doubt it. Most Palestinians are just regular people. — frank

20% of Gazans have a "very positive" view of Hamas (38% "somewhat positive"), according to this:
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah

If I were Israel, I would be very leery about opening my door to that group of people.

35% of Americans have a favorable opinion of Donald Trump. Doesn't mean they're all going to raid the Capitol. At least I hope not. :grimace:

Most Palestinians are just regular people. — frank

Most Palestinians aren't going to be the ones creating boat loads of dead Jews. You don't need most of them to accomplish that

it does mean that if Donald trump gets back in power, we risk another coup attempt. You don't need all of a group to do something terrible for something terrible to happen

Do you think one day there will be Jewish presidents of Arab nations? — BitconnectCarlos

When the US stops killing off the moderates and putting extremists in charge, sure.

@Tzeentch Did you read that they voted in Dutch parliament that they consider the slogan "From the river to the sea, Palestine shall be free" to be a call to violence because it would propagate the destruction of Israel?

Funny that. Where's the call to violence exactly? Maybe my English is rusty.

As if we can't be opposed to Israel as a Jewish state (which I consider inherently discriminatory and a source of many of Israel's internal problems) by peaceful means? We can't insist on a one-state solution where all people are equal regardless of their faith or mother? We can't insist on a two-state solution between equal sovereign nations?

Let alone that this is a rallying cry about stopping Israeli oppression rather than the obliteration of Israel. It was a PLO phrase, which always pursued a two-state solution.

Dutch politics is pathetic. Ridiculous virtue signaling.

Let this sink in. Count the number of Israeli settlements in land that isn't Israeli under any international law. Stolen land. And the thefts continue.

Dutch politics is pathetic. Ridiculous virtue signaling. — Benkei

Maybe that's in acknowledgment of the shameful oppressive colonialist history and smug not-me attitudes of your country?

Did you read that they voted in Dutch parliament that they consider the slogan "From the river to the sea, Palestine shall be free" to be a call to violence because it would propagate the destruction of Israel?

Funny that. Where's the call to violence exactly? Maybe my English is rusty.

As if we can't be opposed to Israel as a Jewish state (which I consider inherently discriminatory and a source of many of Israel's internal problems) by peaceful means? We can't insist on a one-state solution where all people are equal regardless of their faith or mother? We can't insist on a two-state solution between equal sovereign nations?

Let alone that this is a rallying cry about stopping Israeli oppression rather than the obliteration of Israel. It was a PLO phrase, which always pursued a two-state solution. — Benkei

The slogan is a bit edgy, but I agree.

Things like these should spark a healthy public and political debate, and not be used cynically by the old cadre to try and score 'good boy' points.

Clearly the phrase itself is not an incitation to violence. Van Baarle (who used the phrase in parliament yesterday) even emphasized he believes in equal rights for Muslims and Jews in the very same sentence. They're just deathly afraid that critical voices will shatter the Dutch image of being an exemplary US vassal (which of course involves unconditionally supporting Israel, no matter what).

Dutch politics is pathetic. Ridiculous virtue signaling. — Benkei

Indeed. We're governed by toddlers.

Dutch politics is pathetic. Ridiculous virtue signaling. — Benkei


Indeed. We're governed by toddlers. — Tzeentch

Easy to say by anonymous nobodies. Why don't you candidate yourselves, since you know better. Let's see if you ADULTS can do better than just whining over the internet like baby girls.

While I think it might not be right to ban the phrase, Palestinians chanting that ABSOLUTELY mean "from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean sea, Palestine will be free of Jews."

Ignorant westerners trying to virtue signal don't realise what the chant really means.

Jordan queen skeptical Israeli children were beheaded by Hamas during onslaught
https://www.timesofisrael.com/jordan-queen-skeptical-israeli-children-were-beheaded-by-hamas-during-onslaught/

I think it's very unfortunate that we've come to focus on exactly how they were slaughtered. Beheaded, burned alive, slit throats, stabbed through the heart, shot... It's a complete red herring to focus on this I think.

Did they murder them? Did they torture them? These are the two questions that are relevant.

While I think it might not be right to ban the phrase, Palestinians chanting that ABSOLUTELY mean "from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean sea, Palestine will be free of Jews." — flannel jesus

I think it's best to be careful with such assumptions.

We can't read people's minds, and to say one has done so and found genocidal intent sooner betrays one's own biases.

It doesn't have to be genocide. A lot of people just want the Jews to willingly leave.

Dutch politics is pathetic. Ridiculous virtue signaling. — Benkei

Actually, this isn't only limited to your favorite country that you hang around in. For example the Swedish government is worried about the rising anti-semitism and the Swedish media reported the similar chant in protests in Stockholm. And the Germans too have zero-tolerance for such disgusting anti-semitic hate speech.

Of course, people protesting for Palestine, someone using such a chant and someone throwing molotov-cocktails in a synagogue are naturally put together. Because, why not?

Which just reminds me how great the already here mentioned exchange between Piers Morgan and the Egyptian comedian Bassem Youssef was. If someone hasn't yet seen it, I encourage to view it or listen to it.

↪neomac
I think it's very unfortunate that we've come to focus on exactly how they were slaughtered. Beheaded, burned alive, slit throats, stabbed through the heart, shot... It's a complete red herring to focus on this I think.

Did they murder them? Did they torture them? These are the two questions that are relevant. — flannel jesus

I disagree. I find it relevant to mention whatever allows us better assess the extent of the ideological clash between the West and the Rest (especially if that’s part of the implicit message Hamas intends to send to its people, foreign supporters, and perceived enemies) as well as the reactions of the latter. The issue I’m thinking about is not much related to the fact of beheading children, but the social and cultural meaning of “beheading” and “children” in that part of the World.
We shouldn’t simply assume that is like ours. The same goes with the notion of “human rights” or “self-determination”.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Most Palestinians aren't going to be the ones creating boat loads of dead Jews. You don't need most of them to accomplish that — flannel jesus

There are already a lot of Palestinians in Jerusalem. No corpse laden boats have appeared. The idea that the two groups can get along has already been tested. They can.

"From the river to the sea, Palestine shall be free"

It is a call for ethnic cleansing. The chanters do not wish to share the land; they wish to annex it all and subjugate the Jews under Muslim rule assuming there are any Jews still left alive. At best subjugation, at worst genocide.

When Israel expands its opponents call that ethnic cleansing, but the same standard is not applied when "Palestine" expands and Israel shrinks. The same people harping against the genocide of Palestinians eagerly support the genocide/subjugation of Israeli Jews with such chants.

yes, they aren't the Palestinians in Gaza though are they? They aren't the Palestinians that just raided the towns and the music festival and slaughtered innocents?

Some of those Palestinians in Israel have lived there their whole life, and some are vetted and given permits to work in Israel from the West Bank. It's fairly obvious why those two groups would be less of a risk than just immediately opening up the borders with Gaza.

The question isn't "can some Palestinians co exist with Israel without violence?", obviously they can. The question is, can ALL Palestinians do that, to the extent that it's a reasonable request to open Gaza up? I really think it's immensely clear that the answer to that is no.

No it isn't. Can't you read? So weird the PLO was always insisting on a two-state solution because that must have been a very deep disingenuous step in not sharing land, especially when they gave away Palestinians' rights to self-govern ad infinitum in the Oslo Accords.

What do you think "from the river to the sea" means? They wish to free it all from Israel. I think it's fairly straight forward.

People are up in arms about a slogan that supposedly suggests ethnic cleansing, while ignoring - no, in fact proclaiming unconditional support for - actual ethnic cleansing, actual crimes against humanity taking place in the Palestinian territories under the auspices of the Israeli government.

And those aren't slogans or vague accusations, they're backed by UN Security Council resolutions and by countless reports of human rights organisations.


One might think they're aiding Israel by turning a blind eye to its rampant human rights abuses, but in fact it accomplishes the opposite. With every human rights violation that is perpetrated and subsequently ignored, reconciliation becomes more difficult, the list of Israel's enemies grows and global support for Israel diminishes.


Recent votings in the UN Security Council already show world opinion towards Israel's war on Gaza is under pressure, and when the issue is taken to the UN General Assembly I think it will become painfully clear how isolated it has become.

It means exactly the same as Likud states should be entirely Jewish with the largest difference that even Hamas is in favour of a two state solution.

Since when has Hamas been in favor of a two state solution? In their charter they demand the annihilation of Israel. Where did Likud state that Israel should be entirely Jewish? This strikes me as a radical minority position.

actual ethnic cleansing — Tzeentch

Ethnic cleansing. Genocide. One square inch of Israel on Muslim lands constitutes ethnic cleansing for a certain side. Excuse me if I sound jaded.

Exactly.

They are "worried" about being annihilated, when they have nukes.

And they're the ones who are ethnic cleansing another territory, right now, making it extremely difficult to form a two-state solution.

That's quite ironic.

Since 2017. We've been over that a year or two ago in this very thread.

As to Likud:

Their original party program:

a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.
— Likud

The 1999 version:

a. “The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.”

b. “Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel.
The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem”

c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”

I'm sure you can find their current party program on the knesset website but I cannot access it.