A rigid approach to morality doesn't allow mercy. — Bitter Crank
'Withholding the truth' suggests not saying anything - which is not the same as lying. — Wayfarer
Where I would draw a very strict line is 'lying for gain'. — Wayfarer
Lying is attacking someones intuition, and infantilizing them. Deciding what is or isnt good for them — Wosret
Say a dude's going to go murder a bunch of people, but you lying to him can keep him from doing that. Isn't that doing what is loving for both the almost-murderer and those he's saving from not being murdered? — Heister Eggcart
Perhaps this is the murkiest part of my position, but I hold that love is first among equal virtues, with other such virtues being honesty and truth. I think this because one can tell the truth without being loving, and honesty only comes about once one wills the good of another, once one loves, so honesty is merely a result of love's precedence. — Heister Eggcart
In my first example, when someone lies to me that means that they've told me something that isn't the truth, so they're both lying and withholding the truth. — Heister Eggcart
Is there a particular example that you want to discuss? — TimeLine
What I meant by 'withholding the truth' is not saying anything - maintaining silence. That is not lying. — Wayfarer
To clarify, I'm not refuting the moral quality of the lie in itself, but whether that lie may or may not facilitate honesty in the individual doing the lying. As I said in the OP, honesty follows from love. — Heister Eggcart
Honesty, then, is to will the good with the fullest intent. This means that, for me, to love is to be honest, and to be honest is to love. However, I did say earlier that one can withhold the truth yet still be honest and loving. Perhaps this is the murkiest part of my position, but I hold that love is first among equal virtues, with other such virtues being honesty and truth. I think this because one can tell the truth without being loving, and honesty only comes about once one wills the good of another, once one loves, so honesty is merely a result of love's precedence.
Liars aren't honest ever, regardless of what good intentions, and better future they're selling their souls for. — Wosret
The SS (again, a ridiculous example that will never happen to you ever, ever, ever, and just is a wedge rationalization for continuing sociopathic behavior) — Wosret
didn't show up to anyone's house thinking themselves to be evil, and there to kill the righteous innocence. It was lies, bullying, indoctrination, propaganda, and other forms of manipulation that brought them to your door to do the "righteous thing", which every act they viscerally knew was wrong, but also had lots of justifications and rationalizations, and the best of intentions. — Wosret
Nazis aren't going to come to your doors, and most strangers don't have much incentive to believe you anyway, let along SS officers... no this is just a rhetorical ploy, and wedge in order to rationalize all of the puppeteering, and manipulation of loved ones and friends, the ones the most susceptible, and at risk of falling prey to you. — Wosret
suppose the liar in 2.) is afraid that the kidnapper will catch on to the liar's intentions if the original response is given. Suppose he/she therefore answers the question honestly and gives directions that lead to the interstate. But suppose that he/she still tries to trick the kidnapper, this time by giving the longest route to the interstate or a route that will go right by a police station. That is still being deceptive. It is being deceptive about one's intentions. Can it be called honest? — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Intentions, not words uttered, are probably where honesty and dishonesty are really found. — WISDOMfromPO-MO
Your example of the Nazi camp is a situation or circumstance that is external to you. — TimeLine
For instance, if you were told in confidence by someone who was remorseful about them cheating on their partner as he sought your advice and you told him to be honest, if he fails to be honest and she inquired with you about whether he had cheated on her or not, would you lie and say that you do not know? — TimeLine
You are caught between your obligation for the trust and confidence he had asked of you despite the wrongdoing of his actions and the deceit she was experiencing by him. Sometimes, by saying nothing at all, you are saying 'yes' and so a lie almost becomes inevitable. — TimeLine
But that really has nothing to do with me, in a sense, it is an ethical problem. Morally, however, it is about being deceptive or lying relating to my own actions and indeed they do cross-over, but not, because I was not the one who committed the wrongdoing itself that led to that ethical dilemma. In the case of the man who cheated, he may have appeared remorseful but he was more afraid and I believe that by remaining dishonest he has no love for his partner. He loves himself more, which is the reason for him cheating and his so-called guilt was actually the fear or risk of losing his reputation, as an example. — TimeLine
This is why I said that honesty toward someone you love and care for would always outweigh a lie, you would have absolutely no fear to tell the truth whatever that may be because your moral position outweighs your ego. — TimeLine
Well, hold on. I'm not judging who's a liar and who's not, but whether a lie can pair itself with honesty and love. — Heister Eggcart
No idea what you're trying to say here. Please reword and clarify. — Heister Eggcart
The SS example was just that, an example. In principle I can plug in different people with a different setting and the moral paradigm would remain the same, I think. — Heister Eggcart
do think that the situation that I refer to in the OP and later on here is indeed pretty rare, and would be an outlying, moral predicament. I think Wosret has been worried about me suggesting that "lying honestly", if possible, should be used at all often, which is not what I'm saying. I'd say that lying out of love would essentially be a last resort, a kind of necessary evil, maybe. — Heister Eggcart
It can with self honesty, and self love... but it's to infantilize, and damage anyone else. It's possible to not suffer the physical and mental draw backs... to turn one's back on the holy spirit, as they say, but those are called narcissistic psychopaths. — Wosret
Lies are what brought them to your door. You further cause, you escalate the problem with more lying. — Wosret
You could come up with different examples, but they'd be less and less persuasive the closer they got to reality. — Wosret
No, that isn't at all my concern... it's that lying to oneself makes one an idiot... lying to others makes them idiots... and further, that people that believe absurdities, will commit atrocities.
I mean... "honest lying" is obvious doubt speak... and "necessary" means that it's impossible that it couldn't happen. These are just clear misuses of words to maintain absurd belief... it's idiocy. — Wosret
I'm recently recovering from being woven in a narcissists's web, so I probably empathize with you here, but I think self "love" is the wrong wording. Self esteem isn't the same as love, at least how I've defined here (see the OP again.) — Heister Eggcart
I dunno about that. Lying might be a problem in itself, but I'm saying that they might be necessary for the good. — Heister Eggcart
What about TimeLine's? I answered that if you didn't read my reply to her. — Heister Eggcart
Had I not known about the cheating, and was asked whether I knew if (he) was cheating, I'd probably deflect and not answer, instead advising her to ask that question to him and not me. — Heister Eggcart
In future I can still protect both the cheater and the cheated-on by working around the various moral confines in place. In other words, lie in one case but not lie in another cases. Then again, I might not always have to lie and break confidence depending on the situation, as I kinda suggested just above. — Heister Eggcart
I think it's probably better to say that the man loves his partner less after having cheated. If he loved her not at all, he'd have fucked off and not looked back. — Heister Eggcart
But, in the event that I deem it necessary, what I'm trying to get at here is that do so still keeps me an honest and loving person, that a lie for love doesn't rubbish my character. — Heister Eggcart
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