Ok so that's unrealistic. — schopenhauer1
It's only unrealistic for as long the West thinks an inherently racist basis for a nation is worth supporting. — Benkei
1. Renounce the idea of turning Israel into a Jewish nation state. — Tzeentch
Ok so that's unrealistic. Israel's whole existence is to have a place in the world where there can't be more pogroms and holocausts (which makes this of course all the more traumatic). — schopenhauer1
Yes. Israel was created with the idea of providing Jews with a safe haven. — Tzeentch
There is nothing inherently wrong with that idea, except for the fact that Britain and France chose to worst possible way to go about it and now we have to deal with the imperfect situation they created. — Tzeentch
Lets also acknowledge that Israel is a far cry from the safe haven that it was supposed to be, and unless a different path is chosen this is unlikely to change. — Tzeentch
I'm assuming everybody in this thread agrees that:
1. Apartheid is unacceptable. That means equal rights for Jews and Muslims.
2. Ethnic cleansing / forced displacement is unacceptable.
That means that the demographics as they are now are basically what we have to work with. This means that Israel cannot be a Jewish nation state, since half its population is Muslim.
A two-state solution is, in my opinion, unworkable from literally every perspective. You'd simply end up with two extremely vulnerable states, likely with plenty of animosity and territorial disputes. I would predict within ten or twenty years there'd be a conflict that wipes one or both states off the map. Not to mention the settlers on the West Bank are never going to leave peacefully.
What other options are there? — Tzeentch
So this is where I keep railing against the idea of "I want my OLIVE GROVES". In other words, just as Israeli extremists who want to settle "Samaria and Judea" is wrong, so is this idea that every past event has to be relived and violently opposed by generations that follow. Palestinians have to want to live in peace and probably be okay with some sort of monetary compensation rather than land. Land is such an OVERRATED value. It's a fetish even. Israel needs some land, and Palestinians need some land. It doesn't need to be THAT land. — schopenhauer1
If we assume for a moment a new secular state is created, then no one would be forced to move. Everybody could live where they currently do, or move to other places within Israel voluntarily. Of course some sort of reconciliation would have to have taken place.
Are you suggesting paying Palestinians money to leave voluntarily, or letting them settle some new land? — Tzeentch
I'm talking a usual sticking point, the "right of return" from 1948 War. — schopenhauer1
But also, let's say Israel deems that there are parts of the West Bank that are strategically very hard for Israel to maintain security and have to have some Israeli oversight, those kind of things as well. — schopenhauer1
I'm talking a usual sticking point, the "right of return" from 1948 War.
— schopenhauer1
In a secular state, the land would belong to all citizens, people would be free to move wherever, assuming there is housing available. — Tzeentch
Right of return is the idea that Palestinians who previously lived on specific tracts of land that are now lived in by Israeli Jews have the right to those specific properties back (or their descendents have that right). It's not just about the general ability for them to freely move around the area.
Either Jews have to be moved out or Palestinians have to accept reparations, someone has to give something up either way. — flannel jesus
Israel needs some land, and Palestinians need some land. — schopenhauer1
In a secular state, the land would belong to all citizens, people would be free to move wherever, assuming there is housing available. — Tzeentch
The Israeli army would remain the Israeli army, but would be ran by both Israelis and Palestinians. So theoretically it would double the manpower pool from which the Israeli army can tap.
Further, I think the single greatest contribution to Israeli security would be solving the issue of millions of angry Palestinians that are sitting within its de facto borders. — Tzeentch
Right of return is the idea that Palestinians who previously lived on specific tracts of land that are now lived in by Israeli Jews have the right to those specific properties back. It's not just about the general ability for them to freely move around the area. — flannel jesus
Interesting detail to be aware of is that those Arabs were mostly expelled and the remainder fled. And since we usually don't reward thieves, the Israelis will have to move out AND pay reparations. Since Israelis have such extensive experience in colonising areas, they should easily be able to move to another place within Israel. — Benkei
No, but their land is not ours to give them is it? It's theirs. — bert1
Until the Arab countries stop dehumanizing women and minorities, they should be treated as inferior to other, more equitable, nations. — RogueAI
I think his point was at indignation does one choose? — schopenhauer1
The one thing we can all agree on here is we don't want them in our back yard. We're happy enough to tell Israel what they ought to do and not do, while shutting down immigration as fast as we can. — unenlightened
So the first step towards a solution as I see it is to deal with the refugees that have been stuck in camps their whole lives, by welcoming them into Europe and The US and Canada, and anywhere else with decent civilised peace loving and wealthy populations. That would ease the pressure all round and show a tad of commitment to a peaceful solution. I'm all for finger wagging as a rule, but it just doesn't seem to be working in this case. — unenlightened
Did you not get the edited version? — schopenhauer1
Got it now, thanks. We shouldn't give land that isn't our away to anyone, psychopathic colonists or gay-bashers alike. — bert1
This is just needlessly stoking flames to live on forever. — schopenhauer1
That's bullshit. What stokes the flames is that there are no consequences for these thieves so they continue to do it. — Benkei
Sure, but the rape and pillage hasn't stopped yet, it's not in the past. We stopped raping and pillaging the natives when they had nothing left to take. The Palestinians still have some rubble, a couple of sticks and a frying pan, and hope. We can't stop yet. — bert1
You're taking away a point I am not making. Rather, it's the grievance game that has to stop. You are encouraging it rather than thinking of solutions to it. — schopenhauer1
But the situation is hopelessly lop-sided. The Palestinians, or even Hamas, are not in a position to say 'Enough! Stop!' because Israel will just carry on colonising anyway. Colonising is an act of aggression, just as much as the rockets. It is the powerful side that must say 'Enough! We won't retaliate." Not doubt Hamas would continue with the rockets but only a Palestinian state can stop that. — bert1
Are you aware of the politics surrounding this? Asking genuinely. Is it lack of wanting to move or lack of wanting the immigrants or both? — schopenhauer1
Fuck the politics, I would be wanting my children safe from being buried alive or blown to pieces. — unenlightened
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.