Ehh, I'm not sure there is much to fuss about here. The article outright points out its suggestion works through the belief of the subject:

There's some debate over whether it's a distinct state or just a form of deep relaxation, but that's pretty much just an argument over wording. You might tell my hypnosis clients, "You fools! It's all in your head!" but then we'll all roll our eyes and say, "Yeah. That's the point."

It's also a bit different to the placebo effect. With the placebo effect, there is a third element (the inert substance) which stands in for a drug which is meant to have an effect regardless of the subject's belief. With hypnosis there is no third element which is meant to achieve an effect regardless of the subject's thoughts on the matter.

Its suggestions are more like just the doctor saying: "This will have an effect on you," which actually does have an effect in causality-- if the doctor didn't say that, you wouldn't believe it and you would not respond as per that belief. The "false" aspect of the placebo effect isn't present in hypnosis because it was never contending to do something outside the belief of the subject.

All I can say at my ripe age is CAUTION CONTAINS TRIGGERS.

"a harmless pill, medicine, or procedure prescribed more for the psychological benefit to the patient than for any physiological effect." - google

The fuss is about the comparative insignificance and significance, connotatively, and in the popular imagination between the two.

Oh, yeah, sorry, it's also about weird sex stuff. I just didn't read all of it, skipped the parts that seemed weird and unimportant.

With the placebo effect, there is a third element (the inert substance) which stands in for a drug which is meant to have an effect regardless of the subject's belief — TheWillowOfDarkness

That's not entirely accurate. Placebo-effects depend on the subject believing s/he is given medication for his/her ailment.

I've become wary of psychology that turns to the "roots" of the issue, a la Freud and such. As if one were conscious of an ideal self and can adjust one's self to that ideal in comparison to their troubled past.

I did consider and still, do, hypnotherapy in the past/present, but, it seems like Freudian psychoanalysis with a twist to it. Something about it smells of passivity (literally) and giving one's self away to be treated actively in someone else's hands. It doesn't seem like a long term solution.

Besides, this whole thread and article are on a big hype-fest, that would create the impression that this shit really works.

Behavior is hard to change, and I don't see the remedy in hypnosis or in the mental masturbation over the past.

Both Freud and Jung did pursue hypnosis, but Jung attempted it on an experienced subject, and they just kind of did everything, and he didn't feel like he was doing much, and didn't understand how it worked.

Freud thought that it was always erotic.

There's something fundamentally wrong in resorting to having someone put you in a state where you're incapable of doing anything yourself and having them do everything for you.

Throw in some Marx, and you get the exploitation of the human psyche at the grandest of scales.

I recently read a book called Cure: A Journey Into The Science Of Mind Over Body by Jo Marchant. [ NPR interview with author ] I wasn't looking for a cure, it was just something I noticed on the bookshelf at home. It's a fascinating book, which I would characterize as a study of how the subconscious mind can be consciously manipulated. Apparently the subconscious mind has more of a direct connection to the body, or rather the ability to control a range of autonomic functions, so by influencing the subconscious we can indirectly effect autonomic bodily functions.

The book explores a range of practices from placebos to faith healing, in a very scientific manner. While reading the part of the book about hypnotherapy I thought to myself "there's probably an app for that," and sure enough a quick search on my phone provided a list of them. I chose a free app by the English hypnotherapist Joseph Clough, available on the app store (IOS) and google play (Android). It's basically just audio recordings that you can playback. I've been trying one of the free ones called: Deep Relaxation (about 15 minutes long), prior to morning meditation. I have to say its had a powerful effect. Actually more calm and peaceful throughout the day and consequently medication/mindfulness is easier. Also feel more empathetic and connected to people around me.

I'm curious if others have tried this, and if not maybe you'll try downloading the app and seeing how it works for you, and perhaps reporting back.

I wouldn't say that I go into a trance while listening to the recordings. I just try to quiet the conscious mind and be receptive to the suggestions.

“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.” - Jung.

I'm a fan of meditation for sure, but no hypnosis, nor placebos. I think that it is important to find the true causes of our symptoms, as it were, and those sorts of things steal credit for things they aren't responsible for.

I just read an article about hypnosis, here.

Psychologists at Friedrich Schiller University Jena (Germany) are trying to come up with a theory for hypnosis. Some people are very susceptible, some moderately so and others barely. The groups perception was tested with a blocking suggestion. As suspected, the more susceptible had a tougher time then those who are least susceptible. Subjects were hooked up to an electroencephalograph so psychologists could watch & measure what happened. Apparently there is an initial impression which is distinguished with deeper processing. Initial impression at 200 milliseconds and distinguished object at 400 milliseconds.

The doctors think that the deeper processes are disrupted during hypnosis, but not the initial impression.

They hope to able tie these effects to locations in the brain.

Like I said though, everyone seems to acknowledge that we're talking about the power of suggestion, which is what the placebo effect is, but yet everyone still treats them like they're super different things, and there is some kind of air of mystery, and mysticism around hypnosis that there isn't around the placebo effect...

Good point. There's in principle no difference between stage hypnotism and marketing.

Marketers will try fucking anything that can be remotely construed as legal... I think that their best technique has always been, and will always be the tried and true telling you that you're flawed/lacking, and they have the solution.

Yep. Hack at your wrist then offer you a hand.

From what I understand, hypnotherapy and the like aren't about resolving deep seated personality issues or whatever, but more like consciously manipulating subconscious conditioned responses.

After reading Cure, the book mentioned in my last post, I started paying more attention to my conditioned responses and experimenting with them. For instance, part of my morning routine is drinking tea, often too much, and at some point walking the dog for a couple of miles. Frequently by the end of the walk I gotta pee, and sometimes urgently. Turning the last corner to the house and suddenly it's urgent and gets worse the closer I get to the door. I just checked and there's actually a medical term for this. It's called latchkey incontinence.

A couple of times this happened I tried to kind of suppress the urgency by sheer will. That had no effect. The next time as I approached home and could start to feel the need, I made a conscious plan to go around the block again, seeing if I could trick myself by removing the possibility of relief. Even though I consciously knew that I wasn't going around the block again but just suggesting to myself that I was, it seemed to work. I only tried that once and it could be that I simply didn't need to go that bad in that instance.

Sorry about the urinary overshare, just thought it was a good example.

All da possibilities hit you no matter where you go, but particularly frequented environments your instantly get hit with the activity associations of that environment. Even drug tolerance is environment specific, as in, when people overdose by mistake, they don't do it by taking more drugs than they're used to, they do it by taking them in a different environment than they're used to, and expecting their tolerance to be the same.

Yeah, we're (usually) a collection of activities that we habituate, and settle into. This is the whole Aristotelian idea of cultivating good habits, which isn't a question of willpower, as much as it is putting yourself in the proper environments, and having the proper associations, and recognizing and creating the proper opportunities in order to facilitate the cultivation of good habits.


Don't see what any of that has to do with hypnosis though and if you think that your effecting your habits, or associations through hypnosis, you aren't. You're just being mislead about the real cause of it, as I said.

It has to do with consciously manipulating autonomic functions. That doesn't read?

No, consciously doing it would be finding the real cause of things, and then changing the world, or changing your routines in such a way that they have an effect. The act of meditating, or relaxation, or listening to calming music may have an effect, that you then attribute to "hypnosis"... but what does that even mean? How exactly is hypnosis doing that?

To be concise: conditioned response and altering rural pathways.

What is it besides the relaxation, the change in habit, and trying something new, the breathing, and music that is doing that? What is hypnosis besides that? Besides that, all I see is placebo, or the belief that something has a cause that it doesn't, and feeling ways accordingly.

You say "conscious manipulation" above, but if you're lying to yourself, and it's working, can all of that really be conscious? Don't you actually have to believe some bullshit in order for that manipulation to work? Like the power of suggestion effecting your psychological disposition, and behavior? If you were truly conscious that it was manipulation, would it really work?

They say that placebos even work when you're told that they're placebos, but I don't think that's the whole story. Either there is a paranoid response in which you don't fully believe that, or you're only told it's a placebo after being told that it is something else.

Where was I when everyone started thinking that was plausible? As I say in my comment, it's precisely the same thing as the placebo effect, or the power of suggestion, and its "effectiveness" can thus be expected to not exceed, but be identical with the placebo effect.

I didn't mention this part, but the "altered state" is achieved by mindful breathing... or is yet just another thing which is synonymous with something mundane. Just relaxation, or calming techniques.

Both hypnosis and the placebo effect are based on the trust we place in those who treat our afflictions. They both are forms of communication between doctor & patient. In the case of hypnosis, the patient listens to the doctor's overt suggestions, in the case of the placebo effect the doctor's overt suggestions are 'lies', which the patient assumes to be the truth. Hypnotic suggestions are not necessarily, or ordinarily lies, the suggestions the placebo effect makes are necessarily 'lies'. My guess is that hypnotic treatment is predictably more effective with a wider scope than utilization of the placebo effect in most cases.

They are both based on the trust and exalted position given to the medical profession, which is great, since we all want to be healed. I recall my great-grandmother was never satisfied with a doctor unless she was prescribed some sort of pill.

They say that placebos even work when you're told that they're placebos, but I don't think that's the whole story. Either there is a paranoid response in which you don't fully believe that, or you're only told it's a placebo after being told that it is something else.

Is it that you don't believe people can be conditioned to respond in ways that apparently bypass their conscious awarness?

That's called being deceived... and although quite shitty, divisive, disorienting, disassociating, and destructive... it's definitely a thing.

It can be shitty if it's designed to be shitty. Nocebo is as effective as placebo, from what I understand.

Deception is always destructive, autonomy violating, and puppeteering.

I understand your concerns, Worsret, though I think they're unfounded. If the subject actually interests you at all I suggest that you read Cure. It's a fascinating study.

I know, everyone thinks that bullshit is no big deal... we all say we're about truth, until we decide that there's some personal benefit in bullshitting, and then we're totally for that.

If I suggested that you relax, and I really want you to relax, how is that a lie or in any way deceptive?

Is it that you don't believe people can be conditioned to respond in ways that apparently bypass their conscious awarness? — praxis

This is what you said. What does "bypass conscious awareness" mean? I said to call a spade and spade. I said call relaxation relaxation, and assign proper credit where it is due.

So yeah, I agree with the things I said, and don't think they're deceptive. I was disagreeing with what you said.