A burden is a burden only if one consents to carry it. When you attempt to burden someone else and they reject it, your only recourse is to have a negative opinion of them. You cannot force your load on them. — Vera Mont
No Man Is An Island Poem by John Donne
Poem Hunter
https://www.poemhunter.com › Poems
Jan 3, 2003 — No man is an island, Entire of itself, Every man is a piece of the continent, A part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, — John Donne
Because that has not happened should we claim Christianity does not exist? — Athena
Why democracy? Because it stands for rule by reason, and liberty, and justice for all. — Athena
None passed. Every legislature held that power to itself. Not very democratic in my book.If you are interested in viewing the legislation introduced on referendums on declarations of war in the 64th Congress, the pertinent bills and resolutions are: S.5796, S.J. Res. 10, H.J. Res. 128, H.R. 15385, H.R. 20998, H.R. 21002, H.R. 21032, H.J. Res 371, H. Res. 492, H. Res. 495, H. Res. 497, H. Res. 498, H. Res. 507.
In doing what? Treating them all fairly and decently? Or have the immigrants done well in adapting to conditions and overcoming barriers?Considering the US has always had to deal with immigrants who do not understand our institutions and way of life, I think the US has done amazingly well — Athena
The slogan means that. The law doesn't deliver; the dominant culture doesn't deliver. That's why all the people of colour are still having to fight for what they should have been guaranteed over two centuries ago.Liberty and justice for all means there are no favorites. — Athena
But the biblical ones are! That's one of the main problems of religion, yes? Lies and fables and resulting edicts on how humans must behave based on the fantasy words of non-existents. — universeness
For all the good religion has done it has done just as much evil — Athena
Stands for, but does not deliver.
Even if democracy were operational in the US, it would not be the reason for entering all of those wars, since the American form of government has never been under any outside threat. Every administration had its own reasons for embarking on a war or undeclared armed intervention in foreign affairs. In no case did those reasons have any bearing on the defence of their own democracy. And in no case was the polity consulted before taking the decision that would take many of their sons and lately daughters, nor were the lower ranks of the armed forces asked for their consent. — Vera Mont
For all the good religion has done it has done just as much evil
— Athena
I agree, it's a net negative. Religion is pernicious. — universeness
In doing what? Treating them all fairly and decently? Or have the immigrants done well in adapting to conditions and overcoming barriers?
So why admire non-adaptive Jews in Europe more than assimilated Italians in America? And why not admire non-adaptive Chinese in America for maintaining their identity? — Vera Mont
However, our Democracy was and is polluted by the order of a kingdom. — Athena
Weeelll - that rather depends on how many of the nations you've helped arm will constitute the "enemy". And whether the ensuing war gives people time to decide how they feel about it.Ah, there is a very important question. I was thinking if we all shared a good understanding of democracy the power of the people would be so strong we would not fear an enemy invasion. — Athena
Perhaps we can explore what makes people more or less willing to adopt the ways of other people? — Athena
Like ourselves, you never did have one culture. You had many, with people in each region or social circumstance being aware of only their own. Over time, people in the dominant ethnic group adopted some aspects of African, French and Hispanic cultures; the middle class affected some working class customs and vice versa; rural and folk moved to cities; the North and South imitated some of each other's behaviour; in cities with large immigrant populations, Italian, Irish, Nordic, Russian and Yiddish symbology and folklore crept into Anglo-American art, homes and social life. Motion pictures and television tend to homogenize these accidental overlaps and exchanges into American popular culture.I am looking at the US today and I don't think we have a culture anymore. — Athena
If something happened that destroyed our lives as they are today, I don't think democracy would survive. — Athena
I want to focus on what you said about knowing the cause of things and what that has to do with democracy. Especially when so many people were dying of COVID-19 in New York that they had to put their bodies in freezer trucks, the debate over wearing masks and vaccines was insane. What is the truth and how do we know it? — Athena
was just a quote from the link provided by 180proof with:The principle of sufficient reason states that everything must have a reason or a cause. — universeness
on what basis then, universeness, would you refute its proof that this 'same – one – mind' is God (the PSR)? — 180 Proof
I guess you didn't bother to read – or you selectively forget – this post (and an older post linked therein) in reply to you, Athena, sketching out my conception of "democracy" compared to and contrasted with the American political status quo ...Do you really expect me to reply to you when you have not explained what democracy is? — Athena
because I "really do expect" you "to reply" to this request for clarification of what you mean by "democracy", Athena, in the factual context of American history. :chin:The USA defended its democracy ...
—Athena
When since 1789 has the USA been a "democracy" and not an oft-illiberal (minoritarian electoral college-rigged,
gerrymandered-vote suppressed, nativist, imperialist) constitutional republic? — 180 Proof
Only three what-ifs are "too much" for you? :sweat:That was too much 'supposition' for my tastes. — universeness
Why? You have a 'theory of mind' that you apply to every human being you encounter, that none of them are "zombies" – is that theory merely "a faith statement"? :roll: Also, I don't see why you've characterized a (supposed) "proof"Do you think an advanced AI would make a faith statement? If it does then it is not an advanced AI, imo.
as "a faith statement" which, as you know, denotes an unwarranted (unproven) assertion or assent – not a proof.... that every electron is the same electron (J. Wheeler) and therefore that, fundamentally, every (physically instantiated) mind is the same mind (E. Schrödinger) — 180 Proof
Only three what-ifs are "too much" for you? — 180 Proof
I don't mind whether you prefer private or more public on this exchange between us. It is you who wishes to dispute the burden of proof that theists who claim god exists have, so I am happy to trace the path you wish to lay out.If you wish to debate this issue in a more rigorous way, my friend, let's take this over to PMs. — 180 Proof
I believe you.I promise I won't inject any more (apparently unappreciated) 'speculative fiction' into a discussion about "god". — 180 Proof
I had to look up 'heterodox' but sure, that sounds very interesting.As a non-standard (heterodox) atheist, I can think of one pro-god argument (or three) which most atheists I've encountered cannot refute and that I've only hinted at here. At any rate, not an idle exercise I'm sure you'll agree ... — 180 Proof
Do you think an advanced AI would make a faith statement? If it does then it is not an advanced AI, imo.
Why? You have a 'theory of mind' that you apply to every human being you encounter, that none of them are "zombies" – is that theory merely "a faith statement"? — 180 Proof
Where did I suggest the single electron theory was a faith statement? We are discussing the notion of faith, as it relates to god posits not credible scientific theories, such as the single electron theory :roll: (we can agree, anytime you like to drop this 'eye roll' emoticon, passing between us.)Also, I don't see why you've characterized a (supposed) "proof" — 180 Proof
Slàinte Mhath! Advocate for a non-existent ( which I accept that I cannot currently 100% prove, does not exist. :grin: )I'll make the logical, non faith-based, case elsewhere if you'd like. Refute me at your leisure; that's what a devil's advocate lives for, sir. Sláinte! — 180 Proof
Thank you. The USA defended its democracy against a nation that was also a republic but became very authoritarian and became a mechanical society that crushed individual liberty and power as it prepared to rule the world, or at least all of Western civilization. Following the Second World War, the US adopted the bureaucratic order we stood against, and adopted the German model of education for technology for Industrial and Military purposes. As centralized government gains more and more power of authority over everything, we too are becoming a mechanical society, with businesses and institutions operating in fear of that central power.
I don't think we understand what technology has done to power and our liberty. In the past, everyone was prepared for self-government, and to be civic and Industrial leaders. That made our system of elections and representatives workable. That is no longer true. The real power of government today is policies that take care of our every need as Tocqueville warned in 1830. Policies are made by government committees and all we have to do is obey. No longer do we need to be prepared for good judgment and independent action. That is a bureaucratic technology change. We left moral training to the church in 1958. — Athena
One example of this is the way men are programmed to be unaware, dismissive, or repressive of their feelings.
This makes them better tools for the army, industry, or other roles that require a machine or semi-robot, until actual robots or computers can replace them.
We have to ask ourselves ‘what are the rules of identity?’
Who made and enforces them? And who benefits from this situation?
It may be impossible to determine where and when this game started since it’s been going on for millennia.
Odds are that it is not the ordinary average human, their families and communities that are priority.
Odds are that it is not the ordinary average human, their families and communities that are priority. — 0 thru 9
I think there has been some misunderstanding / crossed lines here. My posted sentence of:
The principle of sufficient reason states that everything must have a reason or a cause.
— universeness
was just a quote from the link provided by 180proof with:
on what basis then, universeness, would you refute its proof that this 'same – one – mind' is God (the PSR)?
— 180 Proof
His PSR link was about The principle of sufficient reason. My response was to a point he was making regarding theists, the claim that god exists, and the resulting burden of proof, it did not relate to my exchange with you. — universeness
:roll: :roll:"God exists" is not a claim of fact about how the world is ..., ergo no burden of proof. — 180 Proof
I think I will try creating a man and woman from mud. Whoops that didn't go so well. Those Bible stories do not go so well with believing there is a cause for everything. An explanation of evolution gives us causes. — Athena
Ok, I see what you mean. I certainly have much more time for the Greek atomists than I do for their 'silly' theists.If that does not belong with what you are talking about, I am sorry and will withdraw from the subject of gods and causes. — Athena
Indeed! I didn't actually miss that. The legacy of royal land-grants, aristocratic families and fortunes founded on preferential trade with other British colonies.
Monarchy and moneyarchy. — Vera Mont
Ah, there is a very important question. I was thinking if we all shared a good understanding of democracy the power of the people would be so strong we would not fear an enemy invasion.
— Athena
Weeelll - that rather depends on how many of the nations you've helped arm will constitute the "enemy". And whether the ensuing war gives people time to decide how they feel about it.
Also what makes dominant cultures more or less resistant to assimilating minor differences in speech, religion, art and domestic arrangements. We seem pretty quick to accommodate new foods.
I am looking at the US today and I don't think we have a culture anymore.
— Athena
Like ourselves, you never did have one culture. You had many, with people in each region or social circumstance being aware of only their own. Over time, people in the dominant ethnic group adopted some aspects of African, French and Hispanic cultures; the middle class affected some working class customs and vice versa; rural and folk moved to cities; the North and South imitated some of each other's behaviour; in cities with large immigrant populations, Italian, Irish, Nordic, Russian and Yiddish symbology and folklore crept into Anglo-American art, homes and social life. Motion pictures and television tend to homogenize these accidental overlaps and exchanges into American popular culture.
It seems to enjoy considerable success abroad, as well.
If something happened that destroyed our lives as they are today, I don't think democracy would survive.
— Athena
It'll always have Sweden! In fact, atm, it's healthier in Germany than in the USA. Anyway, the concept isn't going anywhere.
Ok, I see what you mean. I certainly have much more time for the Greek atomists than I do for their 'silly' theists. — universeness
Whoo, that is very convoluted and worthy of contemplation — Athena
The religious communities were sent over when a European nation wanted rid of some irksome sect. The Puritans settled in New England and became farmers, whalers, fishers, ship-builders and tradesmen. And slavers, of course. The cities filled up with steerage passengers looking for work - including lots of Catholics - in the new industries.As I understand it, the immigrants who went to the kings domain in the Southern part of the New Land were out to find riches and those who went North wanted to manifest saints and perfect communities. — Athena
Concord, 1775? https://www.history.com/news/what-was-the-shot-heard-round-the-worldI think once our military-industrial complex was established — Athena
You fought every war for something - territorial expansion, resources, political advantage, economic advantage - just not defending democracy.we fought every war for nothing because we are what we defended our democracy against. — Athena
No, but it became necessary to co-ordinate them in order to insure the American Century. You really can't have world supremacy without a strong military and a strong industrial base. This is why you're losing out to China - only the military half is worth a damn now; American industrial power has been outsourced for more profit.we sure as blazes did not begin with the desire to be a military-industrial complex! — Athena
However, that will not do squat for my grandchildren and their children. — Athena
Another very important exception is when we get into any origin of the universe proposal. It is not currently known whether or not the origin of the universe was causal.The argument for all things having a cause is self-evident. Except when we get into quantum physics things get a little crazy. — Athena
I think it is and even if our approach to such proves to be forever asymptotic, then so be it, that remains the goal.I don't think a fully representative democracy is possible — Athena
Why? You are an honest person Athena, are you not?Now I feel cornered — Athena
I find any notion of personal superiority between human beings, vile and disgusting and I will fight against such notions in every way I can, until I no longer exist.2. a person who has the manners or qualities of a member of a privileged or superior class — Athena
Many 'real' aristos, rather than via your notional and fabled 'noble' imagery of aristocracy, were serious scumbags. The French response to their tyranny was completely understandable. Unfortunately, they took their response tooooooooo far (Israel is repeating that bad mistake now, imo) and ended up with a butcher like Napoleon in charge. Generations of French were slaughtered as a result. But at least they destroyed the aristos. Now they have the more hidden, but as nefarious, French super-rich to deal with, but they are a global phenomenon that are a global scale problem, rather than merely a French one.my understanding of democracy is that we can all achieve the manners and qualities of an aristocrat. — Athena
No its not. Aristos inherited, none of them ever merited.Arguing in favor of an aristocratic form of government is, to me, the equivalent of the merit system. — Athena
I think what is more important is that such alternative views, offer those who choose, to have choices to choose from. I hope they will all choose more wisely in the future, compared to the present and even more so, in comparison with the past.I think you and I share agreements but we have different points of view and this is excellent for democracy because it is the area of disagreement that opens the opportunity for greater understanding. — Athena
So how come, coalitions tend to introduce more balanced and more beneficial policies/laws compared to single-party ruled governance? That has certainly been my experience in Scotland, where we tend to be able to offset the most nasty policies, spewed up by Westminster.When too many people have the decision-making power, nothing gets done. — Athena
I agree. I have already offered some of mine.I think we need to give the distribution of power and authority more thought. — Athena
Apparently, you cannot refute (my) theological claim so instead, sir, you merely parrot a pedestrian folk belief (i.e. idolatry) like a typical "New Atheist" as a crutch with which to deny that the statement "god exists" is not a claim of fact about how the world is (i.e. one fact among all other facts). — 180 Proof
Is "god exists" a claim of fact at all? No more than a tautology, a name, a mantra, or a prayer is a claim of fact. — 180 Proof
The only strawman being offered in our current exchange exists in your own poor thinking here.Perhaps you can't understand the difference, universeness, ... or you're just so fixated on addressing a strawman and thereby misapplying an empirical standard (i.e. burden of proof) in order to prop-up your appeal to incredulity. — 180 Proof
My quarrel is with your 'silly' and continued insistence that real every day theists, are not making claims about the existence of supernatural phenomena that they 'know to be facts' about our universe.Quarrel with idolatry if you must; let me know, however, when you're ready for a substantive, theological debate. — 180 Proof
The military-industrial complex is the enemy we defended our democracy against. — Athena
DO YOU UNDERSTAND WITHOUT YOUR POST I COULD NOT THINK OR SAY THE REALLY IMPORTANT THINGS? This is democracy working. Your ability to communicate what really matters moves our thinking in a positive direction. — Athena
Why would Calvinism have any effect on that arrangement? The elite are never constrained by the limits and demands of religion: strict adherence is for the hoi polloi. As is the infamous "work ethic". — Vera Mont
Weber wrote that capitalism in Northern Europe evolved when the Protestant (particularly Calvinist) ethic influenced large numbers of people to engage in work in the secular world, developing their own enterprises and engaging in trade and the accumulation of wealth for investment. In other words, the Protestant work ethic was an important force behind the unplanned and uncoordinated emergence of modern capitalism. — Wikipedia
Indentured servitude is a form of labor where an individual is under contract to work without a salary to repay an indenture or loan within a certain timeframe. Indentured servitude was popular in the United States in the 1600s as many European immigrants worked in exchange for the price of passage to America.
Indentured Servitude: Definition, History, and Controversy — By CARLA TARDI Updated September 19, 2022 Reviewed by MICHAEL J BOYLE
The rebellion started as a guerrilla movement in the Judean countryside, raiding towns and terrorizing Greek officials far from direct Seleucid control, but it eventually developed a proper army capable of attacking the fortified Seleucid cities.
Maccabean Revolt - Wikipedia
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Maccabean_Revolt — wikipedia
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