Does Bill Maher have a point? — schopenhauer1
Relies heavily on strawmen, so he can then look cool tearing them down.
And that’s the level of this entire analysis, I think.
Maybe people have become more critical of their own country— but that’s a good thing. If they go too far with it, then we should object— fine. But notice the real reason for the claim: growing and vocal support for Palestinian people. That’s unacceptable to the old guard and their echoers like Bill Maher. So suddenly the sky is falling and “Western civilization” is under attack.
There isn’t 100% support anymore for everything Israel does? The kids just not know their history! They must be communists! They must be cheering for Hamas and terrorism! They must hate America and the West and all things White! — Mikie
Yes, now that you bring it up, quite true. Somehow was taking this for granted before as the way things ought to be. Especially on a philosophy forum. But I guess it is something significant enough to be worthy of mention. — javra
So suddenly the sky is falling and “Western civilization” is under attack. — Mikie
There isn’t 100% support anymore for everything Israel does? — Mikie
You speak of strawmen but this is one. — schopenhauer1
Israelis didn’t want to tear into Gaza and cause collateral damage fighting terrorists who hide in large populated areas. — schopenhauer1
Looks like this discussion has shifted focus somewhat? There is a thread dedicated to whole debacle. — I like sushi
You speak of strawmen but this is one. Your characterization is off. He was against the immediate cheering for Hamas after the attacks. If you can’t bracket that as a horrible thing in and of itself, whatever your view, you are morally corrupt. Israelis didn’t want to tear into Gaza and cause collateral damage fighting terrorists who hide in large populated areas. It was Hamas who did the barbaric acts which is going to cause the military to respond by removing them. But see, people don’t know when to bracket. They have no shade of subtlety. They can’t seem to wrap their minds that a barbaric act of injustice doesn’t justify past political grievances. And this was right after the attacks so the response wasn’t even under way yet. But we all know that Hamas only has the media cycle as their cover. The response to the aggression then becomes the self fulfilling prophecy that the proverbial world stage was waiting to get to. They want to conveniently skip over how this move to get rid of Hamas got started. — schopenhauer1
The view is so warped the “oppressor” must have wanted it. Not only that his comment not so subtly hinted that the government wanted collateral damage, not just getting rid of Hamas. — schopenhauer1
Hamas’s actions are grotesque. — Mikie
I think I addressed that earlier…political grievances don’t justify that kind of civilian grotesque killing, period. And as to response, in context of this argument, I mentioned the waiting for the media cycle for Hamas to take cover. They physically take cover under civilian structures. As I said:A normal human being will ask “Why did this happen?”, especially when a horrific event like October 7th is used to justify the killing of innocent people (aka, “collateral damage”). And the answer to that question isn’t as easy as “they terrorists we good guys.” It just isn’t. — Mikie
But we all know that Hamas only has the media cycle as their cover. The response to the aggression then becomes the self fulfilling prophecy that the proverbial world stage was waiting to get to. They want to conveniently skip over how this move to get rid of Hamas got started. — schopenhauer1
Western? Not much to speak of here of Western civilisation as far as I can tell. Just another hate vs hate scheme orbiting religious dogmas and bigotry. — I like sushi
Israel is the one that respects the basic human rights and civil liberties of its citizens — Merkwurdichliebe
People in Gaza and West Bank and citizens of what nation? How are they treated by this so-called ‘Western Civilisation’? — I like sushi
As for people on the left supporting Hamas … there are people on the right who support Nazism. — I like sushi
Either way, the ‘left’ vs ‘right’ thing is silly. I hold some views that more liberal and others that are more conservative. I think it makes more sense to say Conservative and Liberal that some distanced term like ‘left’. — I like sushi
have no real idea how to define western civilisation either. I know most people everywhere are pretty much the same. The differences accumulate with education. Education is key. — I like sushi
It is not the duty of a state to worry about that which it has no sovereignty over. Western civilization has a prerogative for seeing the victory of it's values wherever possible, but in the places where Western values are shunned and despised by the local powers that be, especially those places that are openly hostile to Western civilization, it has every right to subjugate them if necessary. — Merkwurdichliebe
Western civilization is relevant if we consider that out of the two, Israel is the one that respects the basic human rights and civil liberties of its citizens - uniquely Western values. — Merkwurdichliebe
The nation-state law, let us recall, contains no mention of equal rights for all the country’s citizens, Jews and non-Jews. A law that defines the State of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people but does not in the same breath declare equal rights for all the country’s citizens is a nationalist, anti-democratic law. — Haaretz"
Sounds a little ‘barbaric’ though. — I like sushi
‘Subjugate’ how? For what reason? To force assimilation, to dislodge or to destroy? — I like sushi
I believe the vast majority just want the killing to stop but that is highly unlikely for another generation or two. — I like sushi
I have held the belief for a long time that patriotism and religion are equally dogmatic and almost as silly as each other. — I like sushi
? To insinuate that Israel is a Western Civilisation makes little sense to me, geographically, historically and politically. More ‘Western’ than Syria or Jordan? 100%. — I like sushi
We could explore forever what Western Civilisation means … that might be a good idea? ... Might be better to start with cultural and historical distinctions. It is a complex topic in and of itself. — I like sushi
I would not call myself Left or Right. I do not think many people hold purely Left leaning or Right leaning views on every topic. I would say the same for Liberal and Conservative.
This insidious need to associate with one side or another is the biggest problem. — I like sushi
many will necessarily have to die in order to eradicate those savages — Merkwurdichliebe
The theory of postcolonialism has done a more than adequate job of contrasting Western culture with non-Western culture. No need to reinvent the wheel. — Merkwurdichliebe
This wording is very particular. — mcdoodle
How is Israel respecting 'the basic human rights and civil liberties' of the inhabitants of Gaza and the West Bank? — mcdoodle
Boots on the ground would be the non-savage response. Killing thousands of civilians to save a 100 Israeli soldiers is not justified. In war soldiers should be dying not civilians. Seems pretty obvious to me. — I like sushi
There has to be a wheel to start with. There are no ubiquitous terms when it comes to culture. Culture has been a contentious term in anthropology since its inception. — I like sushi
I suppose their way of protecting the fundamental rights and liberties of Palestinian people is by embezzling billions in aid and infrastructure meant for civilians...or committing terrorist acts that provoke heavy military responses, and using their own civilians as human sheilds. — Merkwurdichliebe
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