I think this is an American thing, although made popular via 12 Step philosophy.What I've heard of alcoholics describe as a lifelong urge that has to be suppressed every waking moment not to drink that first drink or that will result in a complete lack of control/.../. — Hanover
Do you know of any actual large-scale longitudinal studies that offer evidence of this genetic predisposition?It's not as if Native Americans, for example, who have extremely high rates of alcoholism, are just weak willed. It's part of their genetic response to the substance.
There is an explanation that nobody likes their first sip of alcohol, or coffee, or the first puff from a cigarette. These are acquired tastes. It takes deliberate effort to override one's body's natural negative response to them. And it's this deliberate effort to override one's body's natural negative response to a substance or activity that bonds the person to that substance or activity.Almost everyone who tries alcohol for the first time finds it disgusting, and the first time being drunk is also not necessarily pleasant. But social pressure makes you do it more and more, and allow it to become a pleasurable habit. — Skalidris
It seems the crucial element here is in deliberately overriding one's intuitive impulses. This is what becoming "civilized" or "cultured" comes down to, for better or for worse.My thread was mostly about why we keep on feeding these habits as it promotes escapism and gives less importance to meaningful social interactions.
But perhaps at that point they had already lost their "drug virginity" to something else.Some people instantly find alcohol pleasurable, from the fist drink. Many people will tell you that on drinking, it was the first time they felt normal or had a sense of wellbeing. — Tom Storm
But this is a maladaptive approach.Using substances may well be a path some people adopt to manage significant trauma or anxiety disorders.
Using substances may well be a path some people adopt to manage significant trauma or anxiety disorders.
But this is a maladaptive approach. — baker
It is the result of genetics. As the study notes, generally, 50% of the cases of alcoholism are inherited. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3603686/ — Hanover
So my question to you is: do you think that it is the case for alcohol? That it is mostly genetics and there isn't much we can do about it. — Skalidris
I think this is an American thing, although made popular via 12 Step philosophy.
It has that American black-and-white, all-or-nothing thinking in it. There is a culturally specific element in how people will interpret their urges. — baker
It's not an all or nothing proposition, but it's just obvious that people react differently to different chemicals. Pollen has no effect on me, but it does my wife, for example.I'm cautious of blaming "genetics" for anything, because blaming "genetics" tends to be a way to absolve the blamer for any responsibility for how they treat the blamed. — baker
To me, it is primarily a philosophical difference. To me, asking a drinker "How did you convince yourself that drinking alcohol was worth it?" makes perfect sense. It took me a while to learn not to actually ask such questions.It's for that reason that I don't think this really is a philosophical difference as much as it is a physiological difference. — Hanover
This is almost verbatim from a conversation with a female acquaintance: "I hate high heels. My feet hurt in them. ... But what can one do. Women must wear high heels."
Clearly, she has such a philosophy of life that enables her to override the pain; whereas some women don't. While both groups of women experience wearing high heels as painful. — baker
I'm talking about overriding one's initial negative response to something that is socially desirable, and having a philosophy for doing so. Like my high-heel wearing acquaintance who would rather not wear high heels, but does so because she is convinced that a woman must wear high heels (and she is able to put this into words).This is almost verbatim from a conversation with a female acquaintance: "I hate high heels. My feet hurt in them. ... But what can one do. Women must wear high heels."
Clearly, she has such a philosophy of life that enables her to override the pain; whereas some women don't. While both groups of women experience wearing high heels as painful.
— baker
The enjoyment of wearing high heels at the expense of the pain of the high heels is not at all equivalent to the desire a heroin addict experiences for his drug. — Hanover
Possibly because they are aiming to eliminate the wrong thing.The finest rehab facilities and the most oppressive of prisons have not eliminated drug abuse.
I've watched it the first time you posted it and I've been wanting to comment on it.Anyway, watch this 50 second video:
https://www.tiktok.com/@bbcnews/video/7295729395971427616
You have a negative initial response to alcohol. Yet unlike so many other people who also have a negative initial response to alcohol, you don't override this initial negative response and so you don't drink. In contrast, many people do drink, despite their negative initial response to alcohol. — baker
What Perry is saying here is a stance that I describe as "typically American". — baker
Of course, adherents of 12-step philosophy will say that these people are then "not really alcoholics". — baker
I actually heard them say it. — baker
You've got to be kidding. — baker
No, there actually are studies on animals that show the addictive quality of chemical substances, which control for social pressures related to the addiction, since animals aren't subject to human social pressures. — Hanover
Perry simply pointed out there is empirical evidence supportive of alcohol's measurable effect on people's personalities and Hitchens ignores the science in an effort to support his poliltical narrative. — Hanover
You can't will away an adverse reaction. — Hanover
When one sees another person in trouble, one doesn't tell them, "Oh yes, chances are you're doomed and science confirms it!" — baker
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