I think it would indeed lead to some sort of cease-fire. — schopenhauer1
My own answer is what the Israelis are doing now - and I do not see that they have much choice. — tim wood
the lives of Israeli and Palestinian civilians, especially children, are equally sacred and deserve full respect regardless of the political crimes of their rulers / overlords / political exploiters — Baden
Innocence is a matter of perspective when it comes to occupation. If I forced you out of your home, and settled on what used to be yours, I doubt you'd see me as innocent. Innocence in contested territory is just human shielding for the occupying forces to claim X Y and Z atrocities, when their human shielding is attacked. — Vaskane
I understand that's your viewpoint and it's a necessarily perspectival one. But the people of Gaza can say the same and then what? Are Hamas then being moral in their further mistreatment of you and yours? — Baden
Actually how about you and Hanover beat each other up with your uberman warmongering. I'll just sit by and watch while you savage each other. Get to it. — Baden
I think it's been explained to you that you can't eliminate an idea and that by killing Palestininan civilians you create more Hamas especially in the long term. Anyhow your whole shtick here seems a blithe, glib and thoughtless exculpation of Israel while blaming everything on Hamas. It's painfully ignorant. — Baden
My base of operations for this discussion is in a neonatal intensive care unit, so I should be good. — frank
Just make sure it isn't a kibbutz either. — schopenhauer1
But then I'd have the freakin US Navy backing me up! — frank
Would it change your view if instead Hamas was hiding in Israel using civilians as human shields there? Should the IDF kill its own citizens to get at Hamas? — bert1
What if Hamas was hiding in New York?
That's frankly stupid and exculpatory.... — Baden
Maybe you and the likes of tim wood.... — Baden
I think it's been explained to you.... — Baden
The deaths of the Palestinians I lay at the feet of Hamas, not Israel.. Men drape themselves in Palestinian babies with guns blazing toward the innocent and the world stands in shock at those who return fire and not at those men? That is a world gone mad. — Hanover
You'd think from your description, Hamas has Israel where it wants them. From my chair, Hamas is being devastated and their only hope is in winning a political battle on the streets that will convince Israel to stop the onslaught. — Hanover
But anyway, no one has actually responded by providing a real battle plan as the bombs fall. — Hanover
Possibly. It would have to be done very carefully and legally, though. Countries have duties to their own citizens that go way beyond duties to innocents in foreign lands. — RogueAI
No. Are you claiming Nazi Germany was a civilized place? We could argue about Japan after I see your answer on this one. — RogueAI
I understand the psychology of this, but I don't forgive it. I don't forgive the ignorance of history, the immediate forgetfulness, the inability to draw analogies, the absolute lack of nuance, the wilful moral blindness, all that which renders otherwise intelligent people helplessly unable to condemn the killing of civilians, even children, unless the right ones are being killed. So, yes, I'm halfway with you on your analysis but I draw contrary conclusions. My conclusion is that it's not "unfortunate" what happened after 9/11 any more than it is "unfortunate" what Israel is doing now; it is, rather, wilfully criminal and predominantly an expression of hatred and revenge that will be recognized as such in the history books and in the later consciences of those who were misguided enough to go along with it. — Baden
Fair enough. I note, though, that waiting for clear solutions is sometimes a luxury not available in the moment.but it will take time to respond as it's not like right now there are any clear solutions, — Baden
I'm not asking, but I wonder what sort of political solution is available with people committed to your death and destruction, ready, willing, and able to act on it, and have done consistently and repeatedly.and disregard of a political solution. — Baden
people both committed to your death and destruction, ready, willing, and able to act on it, — tim wood
My own view is that the Israelis restyle their state into a joint Israeli-Palestinian state, citizens having a choice of one of three passports, Palestinian, Israeli, or joint Israeli-Palestinian, full rights as citizens for all, and all Palestinians citizens. Obviously a lot of details to work out. — tim wood
So, it's just propaganda and your opponents in the propaganda war can simply point out that Israel is the overwhelmingly powerful force in the region as the Nazis around the early stages of WW2 were, that Israel have the power to wipe out Gaza and have expressed their wish to do so as the Nazis expressed their wish to wipe out the Jews — Baden
Your opponents in propaganda will say that the comparison of Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto or even the German concentration camps is more accurate, seeing as it's effectively an open prison. They will probably end by pointing out the fact that you have flipped reality on its head in almost every important and relevant aspect of the analogy at hand shows either your desperation or complete ignorance both of history and the present. — Baden
Why would you want to give them the ammunition to expose you like that? So, it's just a framing, and an extremely perverse one that in a blatantly false appeal to the most stupid and ignorant seeks to paint the Gazans as evil and a disproportionate threat so that Israel can be excused in slaughtering them in large numbers while we dehumanize them as Nazis (everyone hates the Nazis, right). Not good. Try something else. — Baden
I'm not asking, but I wonder what sort of political solution is available with people committed to your death and destruction, ready, willing, and able to act on it, and have done consistently and repeatedly. — tim wood
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