I think the opposite: it begs the question how the world can continue to exist independently of the self (or selves) — RogueAI
If you are not a Platonist, mathematical objects may depend on or be nothing more than objects emerging from brain processes. And a physicalist will have to demonstrate that. The conclusion you reach is false. But my argument holds. If we are not Platonists we can say that truths depend on a world beyond the perception that guarantees their possibility. We can, if we are not Platonists, say that we are only talking about physical and chemical processes that occur in the brain and that a mathematical truth is based on these processes. — JuanZu
Do mathematical truths have nothing to do with matter and energy? I agree, that's why I'm not a physicalist. — JuanZu
Your claim here suggests that you think that a statement can only be true if it "corresponds" to something that exists, and so that if a true statement is about something non-physical then it must correspond to some non-physical thing that exists. — Michael
I claim that the essence of objective truths cannot be reduced to either perception or subjectivity — JuanZu
a world that I have defined as a non-perceptual exteriority beyond subjectivity that also encompasses subjectivity. — JuanZu
Truth itself <is> purely conceptual. — PL Olcott
That the world exists (an abstract concept) is verified to be true (also an abstract concept) on the basis of anything that appears to be any physical sensation (not merely an abstract concept).
— PL Olcott
But what isn't verified is that there is more to the world than those physical sensations. — Michael
When I think about why is it called "apple", how to describe it, what is its nature, why apples exist, etc. I'm getting into concepts. These are not facts. They are subject to interpretation. So, we cannot call them "truth". — Alkis Piskas
No.Of course things we aren’t perceiving exist.
— Patterner
I don't perceive Santa. Does he exist? — Michael
Yes, yes, of course We can come up with many different scenarios that are not the topic under discussion. I believe the topic is physical things in the real world.How could I perceive something that doesn’t exist?
— Patterner
Dreams? Hallucinations? A VR headset? — Michael
I believe the topic is physical things in the real world. — Patterner
I believe the topic is physical things in the real world.
— Patterner
How do I know that I am perceiving a physical thing in a real world and not just dreaming or hallucinating or being tricked by an evil scientist who has my brain in a vat and is stimulating my visual cortex with nanomachines? — Michael
It is by definition impossible to detect the difference between reality and a perfect simulation of reality.
If the simulation is less than perfect then there may be tell-tale signs.
If (for example) reality is a projection from one's own mind, then one might see signs of this. — PL Olcott
Is there a difference between reality, dreams, and hallucinations? — Patterner
Sure. But if one had only ever experienced a poor simulation of reality and never experienced reality then one wouldn't know that one was experiencing a poor simulation of reality and not experiencing reality. — Michael
That seems reasonable to me. But you ask: "How do I know that I am perceiving a physical thing in a real world and not just dreaming or hallucinating..." If you don't know how to tell the difference, how do you know there IS a difference?Is there a difference between reality, dreams, and hallucinations?
— Patterner
The things we see when we dream and hallucinate are not mind-independent, and don't continue to exist when we don't see them, whereas (many believe) the things we see when we are awake and not hallucinating are mind-independent, and do continue to exist when we don't see them. — Michael
Indeed. That is my point. If you know they are different things, why ask how you can know which you are experiencing? Which category does your experience fall into? There's your answer.Is there a difference between reality, dreams, and hallucinations?
— Patterner
Well, if here were not, why would we have three distinct terms for them?
And that pretty much sums up this thread: failure to pay attention to how words function. — Banno
How do I know that I am perceiving a physical thing in a real world and not just dreaming or hallucinating or being tricked by an evil scientist who has my brain in a vat and is stimulating my visual cortex with nanomachines?
This question seems relevant to the discussion. — Michael
We can tell that it is not a poor simulation.
— PL Olcott
How so? Maybe this is exactly what a poor simulation is like. Perhaps in reality grass is red and the Earth has two moons. — Michael
That seems reasonable to me. But you ask: "How do I know that I am perceiving a physical thing in a real world and not just dreaming or hallucinating..." If you don't know how to tell the difference, how do you know there IS a difference? — Patterner
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