boethius, everyone having followed already knows (re-repeating, again), in fact, extremism is a problem all over (e.g. † below), yet, again, — jorndoe

Ukraine still isn't ruled by a Nazi regime; those claims are straight from the Kremlin's propaganda machine (don't echo them)
[...]
Apr 25, 2022 - Dec 20, 2022 - Aug 2, 2023 — Nov 28, 2023

Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
As Ukraine's struggle against Russia and its proxies continues, Kiev must also contend with a growing problem behind the front lines: far-right vigilantes who are willing to use intimidation and even violence to advance their agendas, and who often do so with the tacit approval of law enforcement agencies. — Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem

... in fact, they've made progress (re-repeating), while their northern neighbor has regressed (re-rep...). The so-called deNazification of Ukraine is but another political tool borne of ulterior motives. A Nazi regime to join the EU? Nay, Kyiv just isn't that Nazi stronghold narrated by the Kremlin to be cleansed, get over it.

† I'll just stick to links ...

The US · WISN · Nov 18, 2023
Germany · Bloomberg · Nov 5, 2023
The US (military) · VICE · Oct 20, 2022
Russia (military) · VICE · Aug 22, 2022
The US / Online · NBC · Jan 8, 2021
France · France 24 · Oct 29, 2020
Sweden · euronews · Sep 30, 2017 — jorndoe

The Ukrainians have proven willing to change for the better, but not to be overrun by Russia just like that (again); the Kremlin has proven unwilling to change for the better, and continue to landgrab and bomb others in the name of their authoritarianism. (By the way, shouldn't someone have freed Ukraine from military-political covert invaders like Girkin? Shouldn't someone de-genocide the Uyghurs? Shouldn't someone clean up the Kremlin?) — jorndoe

If I remember correctly, the main counter argument was that "there are Nazi's everywhere" ... I ask from where else is there similar evidence of so many Nazi's causing such big problems ... nada. — boethius

But it's good to know that the extent of the argument doesn't go beyond "Everyone who disagrees with me is a propagandist." :lol: — Tzeentch

That's why I have no problem to qualify myself as pro-US while you seem to have problems to qualify yourself as pro-Russian. — neomac

That's why I have no problem to qualify myself as pro-US while you seem to have problems to qualify yourself as pro-Russian. — neomac

"You need heavy weapons to prevail in a high intensity conflict" and "breaking through a prepared, tiered defense will be difficult" is not exactly ground breaking stuff. Such analysis was widely available for anyone who cares to look. — Echarmion

Anyone who knows anything about Russian history and then considers this situation where literal Nazis, both proud and openly advocating the destruction of Russia, are shelling ethnic-Russian civilians in the Donbas for 8 years, would not conclude that the Russians would be unmotivated to teach these Nazis a lesson in proper estimation of an opponents strength. — boethius

Yes, I do have a problem with that. I am trying to understand the conflict, not cheerleading for a side. — Tzeentch

positions that get hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians killed and do not accomplish the war aims, is not pro-Ukrainian. — boethius

Anyone who knows anything about Russian history (that one made me laugh out loud!) knows perfectly well that there are quite a few people branding Nazi symbols in Russia as well, in nationalistic circles quite close to Kremlin in particular. — Jabberwock

Yes, I do have a problem with that. I am trying to understand the conflict, not cheerleading for a side. — Tzeentch

Or you need to actually get deeper into this and see it is a bit more complicated than that. — Jabberwock

Well that presupposes that you know what is pro-Ukrainian. BTW positions that get hundreds of thousands of Palestianis killed and do not accomplish the war aims, is not pro-Palestianian, right? — neomac

BTW positions that get hundreds of thousands of Palestianis killed and do not accomplish the war aims, is not pro-Palestianian, right? — neomac

Wagner is recruiting hardened criminals from prison. — boethius

Now, on the point you are responding to, my point is exactly that Putin can make a simplistic argument!

Doesn't matter how complicated you think it is, a lot of Russians will be sympathetic to Putins justification they are fighting Nazi's in Ukraine. You're saying regular Russians hold your view that it's more complicated, that of course Russia has just as many Nazi's?

Think about it, obviously not.

I focus on the symbolism these groups use in that statement just because that's what will be used by Putin to communicate this to the public. I specifically explain that this factual based motivation is going to be even stronger with propaganda. — boethius

Anyone knowing even a bit of Russian history (and from this post it is very clear that it is not you) knows that before Wagner Group started recruiting prisoners, it was an elite PMC who was very strict about its recruiting. I was talking about WAGNER, you know, like in WAGNER Group, i.e. its founder. He is not a random guy from prison, he is a guy who (along with Prigozhin), used his elite troops to medle in various conflicts around the world, with the blessing and financing from Kremlin. — Jabberwock

Putin since his second term have been coveting support from Russian nationalists (I have given tons of links with my exchange with Mikie). It happens so that many of the 'mainstream' (if you can call them that) nationalists have close relations with definitely-not-mainstream far-right nationaiists many of whom are neo-Nazi. They have been pampered, supported and financed by Putin for his political gain. — Jabberwock

Lol. You clearly have no clue how propaganda in Russia works. I recommend watching some excerpts prepared by Julia Davis. — Jabberwock

It's simply obvious fact that the Nazi groups that rose to positions of power and prominence — boethius

Because it's only the Nazis willing to shell civilians and keep the conflict going in the Donbas come what may! — boethius

Go on, explain how hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians dying for war aims that are not accomplished and seems clear to everyone now was completely obvious to everyone all along that the war aims wouldn't be accomplished with the means supplied ... is "pro-Ukrainian”? — boethius

Fortunately, Hamas is competent and savvy enough to avoid a path that gets hundreds of thousands of Palestinians killed, only mere tens of thousands. — boethius

More importantly, likely Hamas has achieved its war aims of demonstrating to the Arab world that Israel can be humiliated on the battlefield, this will motivate additional fanaticism for decades to come. — boethius

With enough irregular forces with enough asymmetric assets borne from modern technology, irregular forces that can't practically be deterred with nuclear weapons, there very well may come the day when the IDF loses to a ragtag collection of groups originally created, trained, financed and incubated in the wars of the US. — boethius

It seems that the exchange of violence in this war disfavours the Palestinians, but that isn't their calculus. Hamas killed a meaningful percentage of the total Israeli population, whereas Israel has killed a meaningless percentage of the total Muslim population — boethius

The videos I posted clearly demonstrate the groups adoption of "Nazi stuff" is far deeper than just tattoos. — boethius

ruling neo-Nazi regime in Kyiv — Sergey Lavrov

Can you leave me alone, please? Thank you. — Sergey Lavrov

No where do I claim Ukraine is ruled by a Nazi regime. — boethius

Ukraine still isn't ruled by a Nazi regime; those claims are straight from the Kremlin's propaganda machine (don't echo them)
[...]
Apr 25, 2022 - Dec 20, 2022 - Aug 2, 2023 — Nov 28, 2023

Ukrainians change for the better for example — boethius

Criterion               Jun 2023       Nov 2023
Constitutional Court    Good progress  Completed
Judicial governance     Completed      Completed
Anti-corruption         Some progress  Some progress
Anti-money laundering   Some progress  Completed
De-oligarchisation      Some progress  Some progress
Media legislation       Completed      Completed
National minorities     Some progress  Some progress

↪boethius, the Kremlin gets their way, or it's the nuclear way...? — Nov 9, 2023

Again easy to retort. You are cheerleading Ukrainian surrender to Russian demands. — neomac

Goodie then, you don't defend/uphold the Kremlin's fabrication, glad to hear it. — jorndoe

↪boethius, still going on about the Nazi stuff, eh? :)

I guess I can re-repeat. Nah, Ukraine still isn't ruled by a Nazi regime; those claims are straight from the Kremlin's propaganda machine (don't echo them). — jorndoe

Far-right Extremism as a Threat to Ukrainian Democracy.
Far-right extremism represents a threat to the democratic development of Ukrainian society. The brief provides an overview of the activities and influence of the far right, differentiating between groups that express radical ideas but by and large operate within a democratic framework and extremist groups, which resort to violence to influence society. — Vyacheslav Likhachev, Freedomhouse.org

During confrontations between right-wing groups and law enforcement bodies, the police show unacceptable passivity when it comes to preventing or suppressing unlawful activities, investigating incidents, and bringing perpetrators to justice. For example, the Svoboda party activists who threw grenades during a rally outside parliament in 2015, killing four national guardsmen, have not yet been convicted. One of the latest examples of the authorities’ tolerant attitude was on display in February 2018, during clashes in Kyiv following a hearing of a case involving Odessa’s mayor, Gennadiy Trukhanov. After the hearing, National Druzhina activists and members of other radical groups attacked police officers using gas cartridges and even firearms. The officers reacted rather passively; one activist, who shot and wounded a police officer, has yet to be taken into custody. — Vyacheslav Likhachev, Freedomhouse.org

This atmosphere has created favorable conditions for right-wing radicals and extremists, despite not being attractive as an electoral option. It has also left the state and society very vulnerable to their expansion. Radical groups no longer have to worry about societal or government reactions when it comes to recruiting members, they also face few restrictions when it comes to spreading their ideas. Effectively, they exist in an environment characterized by lack of accountability and impunity. — Vyacheslav Likhachev, Freedomhouse.org

Ukraine's Nazi problem is real, even if Putin's 'denazification' claim isn't

But even though Putin is engaging in propaganda, it’s also true that Ukraine has a genuine Nazi problem — both past and present. — NBC

Just as disturbing, neo-Nazis are part of some of Ukraine’s growing ranks of volunteer battalions. They are battle-hardened after waging some of the toughest street fighting against Moscow-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine following Putin’s Crimean invasion in 2014. One is the Azov Battalion, founded by an avowed white supremacist who claimed Ukraine’s national purpose was to rid the country of Jews and other inferior races. In 2018, the U.S. Congress stipulated that its aid to Ukraine couldn’t be used “to provide arms, training or other assistance to the Azov Battalion.” Even so, Azov is now an official member of the Ukraine National Guard. — Ukraine's Nazi problem is real, NBC

To be clear, far-right parties like Svoboda perform poorly in Ukraine’s polls and elections, and Ukrainians evince no desire to be ruled by them. But this argument is a bit of “red herring.” It’s not extremists’ electoral prospects that should concern Ukraine’s friends, but rather the state’s unwillingness or inability to confront violent groups and end their impunity. Whether this is due to a continuing sense of indebtedness to some of these groups for fighting the Russians or fear they might turn on the state itself, it’s a real problem and we do no service to Ukraine by sweeping it under the rug. — Ukraine’s Got a Real Problem with Far-Right Violence, Atlantic Council

For the most extreme among these neo-Nazis, the plan is even more sinister. They see Ukraine as a chance to further “accelerationist” agendas, which seek to speed up a civilization-wide collapse and then build fascist ethno-states from the ashes. This school of thought is demonstrated vividly by “Slovak,” whom we at SITE consider one of the most influential accelerationist neo-Nazi voices in the far right. On Feb. 25, Slovak announced that he was leaving an unknown country to fight in Ukraine. “This war is going to burn away the physical and moral weakness of our people, so that a strong nation may rise from the ashes,” he wrote. “Our job is to ensure that conditions remain terrible enough for long enough for this transformation to happen, and happen it must. Our future is at stake and we may not get another chance, certainly not one as good as this.” — Neo-Nazis are exploiting Russia’s war in Ukraine for their own purposes, Washington Post

The issue at hand is not a matter of validating or invalidating narratives, though. The issue is security — for Ukraine and for the countries these extremists come from.
In many ways, the Ukraine situation reminds me of Syria in the early and middle years of the last decade. Just as the Syrian conflict served as a perfect breeding ground for groups like al-Qaeda and the Islamic State, similar conditions may be brewing in Ukraine for the far right. Syria became a plotting and training ground for terrorists to mount attacks in the West, such as the attacks in Paris in 2015 and in Brussels in 2016 attacks.

The extremists who successfully make it to Ukraine could return home with new weapons and combat experience under their belts — or stay in Ukraine, where they can further influence their countrymen online. — Neo-Nazis are exploiting Russia’s war in Ukraine for their own purposes, Washington Post

↪boethius, if you went over the thread, I think you'd find that there's no denying that Ukraine has a slew of social problems, so don't put words in my mouth. — jorndoe

Another frequent honoree is Roman Shukhevych, revered as a Ukrainian freedom fighter but also the leader of a feared Nazi auxiliary police unit that the Forward notes was “responsible for butchering thousands of Jews and … Poles.” Statues have also been raised for Yaroslav Stetsko, a one-time chair of the OUN, who wrote “I insist on the extermination of the Jews in Ukraine.” — NBC

Point is, that there is an actual Nazi problem in Ukraine makes the propaganda work of motivating Russians to support the war far easier, even if you personally believe, and is critical to understanding the war and critical to take into account in understanding Western policy.

For example, if you're the US and actually want a war between Russia and Ukraine you would do nothing to stop the arming, funding and training of Nazis in Ukraine, and if your own country passes a law to make that illegal you just ignore that. — boethius

partial control over as well as free rein to terrorize to affect political decisions and processes, is worrisome. — boethius

another reason is certainly fear of reprisal from the Nazis — boethius

Second, Nazis are able to influence the political process with violence instead of electoral success. — boethius

Third, the Nazis are powerful enough in Ukraine that they can commit clear acts of terrorism and face no consequences. They may not totally control the state, but they act with "impunity", so one step away of taking control of the state. — boethius

Since we know Ukrainian politics is affected by various Nazi projects through the threat of violence, we have to consider the possibility different more legitimate political actors are influenced by violent extortion. — boethius

and polls are not only manipulative as we've seen but people can be intimidated to give one answer over another, — boethius

make the case that Russia is basically a Nazi regime too!! — boethius

just that saying the whole regime in Kiev is Nazi is a ever so slight exaggeration Russian propaganda has made. — boethius

If there's a literal Nazi coup, which is not out of the cards — boethius

You're making an unwarranted leap here from arguing that Ukraine's Nazi problem is beneficial to Russian propaganda efforts to concluding that it was actually a reason for the russian government to invade. — Echarmion

What does it mean that it is "worrisome"? What exactly is the worry? — Echarmion

Certainly? No. You have no grounds to conclude that. — Echarmion

As far as I can see, you have not provided a single example of them actually influencing a political process with violence. — Echarmion

And some more fantasy piled on top. You just can't help but venture forth into the ridiculous, apparently. — Echarmion

No, it is not one step away from controlling the state. This is ridiculous nonsense. — Echarmion

And we're in the realm of just baselessly spinning your narrative where you want it. — Echarmion

An interesting slip, given you just claimed that you're not arguing that Ukraine is a nazi regime. — Echarmion

This consistent effort to lie, manipulate and distort is really tiresome. You claim one thing, then a few paragraphs later you're already backtracking, as if you're somehow unable to go through even one post without dialing up your claims again.

Case in point: — Echarmion

So we went from "there's a Nazi problem in Ukraine that strengthens russian propaganda" to "Ukraine is only one step away from a Nazi regime and a Nazi regime might actually pop up at any time". — Echarmion

Needless to say that the latter claim barely even qualifies as a slippery slope fallacy. — Echarmion

Nationalists there definitely are in Ukraine. But please demonstrate there are groups that honour Nazi collaborators and are clearly organized around an explicitly Nazi ideology, not just have a few "bad apples". Now, if you want to say the nationalism is a different flavour, not explicitly Nazi, but just as bad, sure, I don't have a problem with that. — boethius

Great, so we agree that nationalists inciting genocide are equally bad, no matter whether they explicitly invoke Nazi symbols or not. — Jabberwock

Yes, nationalism plays an enormous role in the causes for the war. The Russian one. — Jabberwock

I don't have a problem with that. I have no problem with characterizing Russia as an imperial state with a very strong nationalist block.

I have a problem of using nationalism in Russia to excuse nationalism in Ukraine. — boethius

Again easy to retort. You are cheerleading Ukrainian surrender to Russian demands. — neomac


No, I'm not. Quote me if you believe I'm saying that.

Perhaps you take my cynical views of Washington's stake in this war as 'pro-Russian', but that's simply a mischaracterization. — Tzeentch

↪javra
I agree that there is such a thing as self-defense. I just don't think it applies to war in general because what is actually being defended is not a person, but an idea of a state, territory, national pride, etc. — Tzeentch

Right now it will be very difficult to come to a peace agreement, since trust between Russia and the West has been completely shattered (it should be attempted regardless). — Tzeentch

When peace talks were started in late March, that should have been the end of the war. — Tzeentch

How far should the situation in Ukraine deterioriate before we can agree the peace accords that were on the table in March / April 2022, scarcely a month into the war, should have been carried out instead of blocked by the US?

Those were blocked by the US simply to save Washington's ego. Flipping Ukraine pro-western has been a decades-long project of the Neocon foreign policy blob, under leadership of chief blob Nuland.

How many thousands of lives and billions in damages is Washington's ego worth? — Tzeentch

Israel should stop illegally occupying Gaza and the West Bank. That's an action that it can and should undertake unilaterally. — Tzeentch

They should stop illegally occupying Gaza and the West Bank, and stop committing human rights violations, war crimes and crimes against humanity. As long as Israel is the occupier and refuses to carry out the relevant UN resolutions, Israel is the problem. — Tzeentch

Now, the Nazis in Ukraine are also a legitimate security threat — boethius

These are facts. A just war theory would need to navigate these facts and demonstrate that the separatists deserved to be attacked and shell (Ukraine's war on the separatists had just cause) — boethius

as well as the Nazis are a threat but not "enough" of a threat for Russia to justify preemptive war. — boethius

If Ukrainian Nazis are murdering and intimidating for political purposes in Ukraine, that wouldn't worry you? — boethius

You'd have to be a moron to not have any fear of reprisal if you make peace and radical Nazi groups and affiliates disapprove of that, going so far as to murder a negotiator (negotiating on your behalf, you trust enough to send to talk to the Russians) to make the point. You'd have to be a moron to take at face value the reason for the murder was the negotiator was a traitor without evidence.

Now, if you really think Zelensky is that much of a clueless moron, feel free to state it clearly. Even I give Zelensky more credit. — boethius

If people can murder their political opponents as well as agents of the state without consequence that will influence things. — boethius

Once you achieve enough military power that the state no longer applies to law to you (law enforcement are either on your side or too afraid to do anything), you are one step away from taking power. — boethius

Again, read the articles. If you just ignore the evidence presented that Ukraine Nazis are unaccountable and act with impunity, or then believe people with that kind of power can't affect people's decisions — boethius

This is a paraphrase of the Nazi apologist position, here and elsewhere. If it's not quite exact, then feel free to interpret as Russia has the same Nazi problem as Ukraine. The main point in pushing the symmetry even to the extreme, is how would it matter? — boethius

How does Russian Naziism, assuming it's as rampant as Ukrainian, justify supporting Ukrainian Nazis? — boethius

My position is Zelensky is not a Nazi but that Nazis at this point basically control everything that matters in Ukraine, such as the police state. So it's a slight distance away from a Nazi coup. — boethius

Because we're not talking in some timeless vacuum of eternal abstract concepts.

In 2022, before the war, there were strong Nazi battalions that could act with impunity and unaccountability already, but they were small compared to the electorate and the regular Ukrainian army, so they did not have the power to stage a coup.

From 2014 to 2022 the Nazis main affect on history is keeping the war in the Donbas going, shelling civilians and being generally provocative, and frustrating any peace process. I would categorize them as a danger to Ukrainian democracy and clearly an obstacle to peace.

But they did not have the power before the war to just stage a violent coup.

Now, since the war, they grow exceptionally more powerful within the Ukrainian state but, more importantly, Ukrainian regulars are being destroyed.

If the process continues, at some point (which could exist even now) there would be no way for the Ukrainian state to resist a violent coup. — boethius

A slippery slope fallacy requires an end-point that is either absurd or the proposer of the alleged fallacy anyways rejects. — boethius

It is an important factor to consider. — boethius

For example, if Nazis now have enough military and police power to simply take over the state, then they could leverage that to keep the war going to essentially extort the West. Obviously an actual Nazi coup in Ukraine would be a PR disaster for all the politicians and officials who have championed the war, so hardliners in Ukraine can hold that over NATO and to keep the money and the arms flowing.

Which would be my guess that they'd use their power for (and even if it's not clear they could take over, the threat needs to be considered) at this stage in the war.

As I say, it's a problem. Nazis aren't the only actor in Ukraine and in the conflict, but they are a significant force with their own agenda and have means to try to bring it about. — boethius

1. You believe that state do not have the right to fight in self-defence [1] — neomac

Your claim was — boethius

I do not claim Ukraine is ruled by a Nazi regime — boethius

So hard to keep track — boethius

↪boethius, the Kremlin gets their way, or it's the nuclear way...? — Nov 9, 2023