I supported Womens' Lib and that resulted in me becoming "Mr. Mom" - a single parent - for a while. But life moved on in unexpected but welcome ways. — jgill
What do you think is inside us that we need to be aware of? — Athena
I feel pretty strongly that most of what has benefitted me has come from the outside, not the inside. — Athena
Not all cultures emphasize the individual. — Athena
This is a moment to surprise. I thought I knew what I thought but I am not at all sure I do know what I think. — Athena
Is this so? Any thoughts? — dani
Which ties back into 143 from the Joyful wisdom with creating your own ideal, and the greatest utility of polytheism, a warrior fights for their ideal due to it being the transfiguring and redeeming aspect that lifts them out of the abyss of nihilism. — Vaskane
The existence of Ma’at in Egyptian society and its myths in the meaning of both the
pharaonic and individual adherence to rules and principles to keep on the right path
reveals that most Egyptians did have a good understanding of just and unjust social
behaviour. In terms of consciousness, this implies that Egyptians were self-reflexive;
they were moral human beings capable of reflecting upon their own behaviour over a
period of time. This assertion is supported by the Italian neuroscientologist Antonio
Damasio’s theory of consciousness. In ‘The feeling of what happens’ (2000), Damasio
makes a distinction between three cumulative forms of human consciousness: 1. the
protoself: a person’s bodily state, which is the most basic representation of self. 2. The
core self: the awareness of the biological bodily state and emotions in the here and
now, which is a more evolved form of consciousness. 3. The autobiographical self: a
person’s reflection on the awareness of emotions over a longer period of time. The
autobiographical self is the third layer and most evolved form of consciousness. It
draws on memory and past experiences which involve the use of higher thought
processes. It requires a person to have a language, an autobiographical memory
capacity, and reasoning ability. Damasio believes that the autobiographical self is a
necessary condition for both rational and mythological thinking. Therefore, to his mind,
mythological thinking does not belong to a lower form of consciousness. Damasio
stresses that myths are not the product of the core self but, similar to rational thinking,
are the result of self-reflexive thoughts of the autobiographical self, which is both an
individual and a group member. An adult constructs this self with its experiences,
ideas, images, evaluations, likes, dislikes, achievements and failures. Although the
autobiographical self is unique to a person, he or she shares narratives with members
of the same peer group, community, or culture. This means that besides using our own
experiences, we include the experiences, ideologies and beliefs we inherit from
(deceased) members of our cultures, which makes us part of the larger narratives of
mankind. The autobiographical or self-reflexive self is thus the result of mythological
and logical individual thoughts of a person, whose consciousness is at the same time
constructed by and part of the collective consciousness of humanity as a whole
(Damasio 2000). — Multgo-13
As I see it, it is more of a question of the particular person. It is connected to the Socratic claim about the examined life. What I need to be aware of may not be what you need to be aware of. — Fooloso4
True. The most important consequence of modern liberalism, for better and for worse, might be to reorient us around the individual. Some take this so far that they reject the notion of a common good. For them the rights of the individual stands at the center. — Fooloso4
From a young age I rejected the idea that we should start writing with an outline. For me writing is a way of thinking. — Fooloso4
And while there's no motivation for an individual to become liberated, — dani
I am very excited by the link I used ... — Athena
... a plagiarized Sumerian story of the creation of man. — Athena
I thought you wanted to know more about the virtues of a warrior.
The warrior's virtue is the ideal they fight for that gives them purpose beyond themselves, beyond the abyss that war leaves man engulfed within.
143 from Joyful wisdom isn't saying "Gods are literally made this way," it's showing the basis for Polytheism is that Deities are individuals who champion ideals. Much like a warrior who champions ideals.
The easiest way to defeat warriors and Gods is to remove/replace the ideal in which they fight/stand for. — Vaskane
From the second section on consciousness I am reminded of Dewey on the meaning of conscience (con - with, science -knowledge) to be, with the knowledge of others. What one would do if others were aware of what we are doing. — Fooloso4
Plato makes great use of mythos, both existing mythos and those he creates. There is a logos to mythos. Although we typically think of logos as reason and logic, its range of meaning is much greater. Etymologically its root meaning is to collect or gather. In the dialogues, however, an appeal to mythos often occurs when argument fails. — Fooloso4
Certainly stories from one culture became part of those of other cultures, but I do not think we should think of it as plagiarism. It is, rather, closer to what happens in fashion style. — Fooloso4
sometimes poetry expresses a truth better than facts. — Athena
Our understanding of reality might be totally different if the Hebrews who left Ur, had acknowledged the Sumerian contribution to their story of creation and the story of the flood. — Athena
You might find the book "God: An Anatomy" by Francesca Stavrakopoulou
interesting. It deals with how the stories and concepts of what comes to be the god(s) of the Bible develop from one culture to another. As the title indicates, the focus is on gods as physical beings. — Fooloso4
I think this thread may have died and I do not know if we can go any further in an exploration of greatness? However, another exciting piece of this puzzle is the role gods have played in shaping civilizations, our evolution, and our present consciousness. Do you have any thoughts about how that subject applies to great nations? — Athena
God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we, murderers of all murderers, console ourselves? ... Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we not ourselves become gods simply to be worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whosoever shall be born after us - for the sake of this deed he shall be part of a higher history than all history hitherto.
Zeus feared once man had the technology of fire he would learn all the other technologies and rival the gods. I think Zeus was correct and I think this has led to serious problems. The moral is, that we need the gods.for the sake of this deed he shall be part of a higher history than all history hitherto.
Simply to be worthy of what? What is "it"? — Athena
The Greek gods were nothing like the God of Abraham so what does it mean to become gods? — Athena
— Beyond Good and Evil, 295I, the last disciple and initiate of the God Dionysus: and perhaps I might at last begin to give you, my friends, as far as I am allowed, a little taste of this philosophy? In a hushed voice, as is but seemly: for it has to do with much that is secret, new, strange, wonderful, and uncanny. The very fact that Dionysus is a philosopher, and that therefore Gods also philosophize, seems to me a novelty which is not unensnaring, and might perhaps arouse suspicion precisely among philosophers.
The moral is, that we need the gods. — Athena
I think a person's brain must be pickled in Christianity to appreciate what Nietzche is saying. — Athena
I don't mean the person needs to be a Christian, but despite not being a Christian s/he can relate to Nietsche because s/he has no other frame of thought. — Athena
While a deconstructionist may have 'the group' in mind, it is still an individualized group that follows 'what they think is right,' as you put it. — dani
The Great Man Theory assumes that world-changing leaders are born, not socialized. In fact, most of them --- Alexander the Great, Napoleon, (Trump???) --- were ass-holes in social interactions, and dictatorial in their governance. Their fervid followers followed them, not because they were nice guys, but because they were perceived to have the "right-stuff" to change the world from the unsatisfactory status quo. It's the job of collectivist-socialist nerds to counteract the immoral excesses of the world-conquerors.Are we great because of a few great men such as Cyrus the Great, Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan, Nietzsche, George Washington, or Donald Trump or are we great because we are united and socialized so that together we can imagine and manifest great things? — Athena
Living without a god. Living without something higher. Plato does this with the idea of the good. — Fooloso4
I, the last disciple and initiate of the God Dionysus
But if we have killed God then what? — Fooloso4
I think it must be just the opposite. A person must overcome the burden Christianity has imposed on us. We must question rather than obey the tablets of "thou shall nots". See the chapter "The Three Metamorphoses of the Spirit" in Zarathustra. — Fooloso4
The Great Man Theory assumes that world-changing leaders are born, not socialized. In fact, most of them --- Alexander the Great, Napoleon, (Trump???) --- were ass-holes in social interactions, and dictatorial in their governance. Their fervid followers followed them, not because they were nice guys, but because they were perceived to have the "right-stuff" to change the world from the unsatisfactory status quo. It's the job of collectivist-socialist nerds to counteract the immoral excesses of the world-conquerors.
But even the bureaucratic leaders of the masses sometimes turn-out to be ass-holes ; perhaps due to the absolute power corrupts principle. The rest of us have to choose which band-wagon to jump on. Or to arduously make our own path. Fortunately, Democracy allows us the freedom to choose neither King nor Communism. But even that option is an uphill struggle without a clear path to follow. :smile:
Essentially, according to the Great Man Theory, people in positions of power deserve to lead because of characteristics granted to them at birth, which ultimately help them become heroes. No great man lives in vain. The history of the world is but the biography of great men.
https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-guide/anthropology/great-man-theory — Gnomon
Ostracism (Greek: ὀστρακισμός, ostrakismos) was an Athenian democratic procedure in which any citizen could be expelled from the city-state of Athens for ten years. While some instances clearly expressed popular anger at the citizen, ostracism was often used preemptively. It was used as a way of neutralizing someone thought to be a threat to the state or a potential tyrant, though in many cases popular opinion often informed the expulsion. The word "ostracism" continues to be used for various cases of social shunning. — Wikipedia
By 'individualized' are you just speaking to a 'group' adequately delineating itself? I ask, as i don't recognize what you're describing in these movements at all really. The whole 'eating it's tail' trope around identitarian groups having very much gate-keeping qualities about them comes to mind.
I might be over-blowing that particular aspect - but it does seem to me that the Frankfurt/Horkheimer origins speak to a very distinct flavour of anti-individualism, essentially replacing individual conceptions with group-accepted ones, in turn attempting to pit these against the conceptions and gate-keeping of other groups in a 'power struggle'. This is never done on the individual level, so i guess I'm wanting a bit more to understand the position that deconstructionist thought has any focus on individuation beyond lip-service? — AmadeusD
I don't think living without something higher is equal to Plato's idea of the good. — Athena
That sounds a little egotistical, and it seems to be exactly why I dislike Nietzsche — Athena
And you can bet your bippy — Athena
Nietzsche may not have had such a following without that jealous, revengeful, punishing God. — Athena
The God of Abraham is absolute power and control ... — Athena
who were compelled to do this or that because of logos — Athena
We really underappreciate the importance of these gods, because Christianity has reduced our ability to think. — Athena
Our thoughts stop with the one and only God, and this is terrible for democracy. — Athena
I don't know if a complete survey of such political attitudes has been done. But I recently saw a video of a Trump supporter, who said something like "if he was not praying daily, how could he get to be a billionaire?", and by implication, president. SomeTrumpers seem to believe his own propaganda, that he is a born --- and born-again --- Genius.:gasp: This is from your link "Leadership traits are inherent and cannot be learned." Does anyone today believe that? — Athena
For Plato the good is what is higher. In the Christian West the death of God is for Nietzsche the rejection of anything higher. That is so in part because God was held to be what is higher. Nietzsche makes the connection with the notion of a value free objective science. He asks what we will find to stand as something higher. — Fooloso4
AmadeusD — AmadeusD
I think it is intended to mimic the Bible, which I know you also dislike. — Fooloso4
Alas, in my old age I lost my bippy. — Fooloso4
Unlike some philosophers Nietzsche doe not speak about timeless truths. If things were different the issues he addresses would be different. What he would say and how interesting it would be I don't know. — Fooloso4
If there was an Abraham this is not a god he would have recognized. The idea of omnipotence was a later development. From what I have read the major influence was Greek philosophy and the idea of a perfect being. — Fooloso4
By the time of Plato, if not before, the gods had already been diminished in importance and influence. — Fooloso4
Even with those who believe in God there is interest in what other religions, sects, and cultures have to say. — Fooloso4
I don't know if a complete survey of such political attitudes has been done. But I recently saw a video of a Trump supporter, who said something like "if he was not praying daily, how could he get to be a billionaire?", and by implication, president. SomeTrumpers seem to believe his own propaganda, that he is a born --- and born-again --- Genius.
Perhaps a combination of inborn superiority and a close relationship with god, will make you a leader : economically and politically. Apparently, a significant portion of the political spectrum believes something like that. :meh: — Gnomon
AmadeusD
— AmadeusD
Yes and colleges have been favoring German philosophers over the classical ones and boy are we in a mess! — Athena
Yes and colleges have been favoring German philosophers over the classical ones ... — Athena
But waiting for college is too late! — Athena
... a speaker should begin with knowing the audience and adjust the speech with knowledge of the listeners. — Athena
He who knoweth the reader, doeth nothing more for the reader.
I should not like my writing to spare other people the trouble of thinking.
No one can think a thought for me in the way that no one can don my hat for me.
Abraham is a human ... — Athena
Socrates asked, "Are the gods good?" the answer is "yes". — Athena
We might ask what is strength because the strongest may not be what is true. — Athena
In some cases this is true. When I went to grad school I found out who was teaching at the schools I was considering and what their approach and interests were. More often than not, they favored American analytic philosophy. I did not find evidence of "moral training" but moral philosophy was often represented. — Fooloso4
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