Interaction.When you say that you write less because you want something more social in experiencing, are you referring to acceptance or interaction? — javi2541997
We are pattern seeking creatures, and normally strive to make the most charitable interpretations of what there is to interpret, also when there is nothing to interpret but silence. But when less is said, our interpretations become more susceptible to whatever the context suggests. In this sense the meanings are not developed by the readers' minds but a context such as a romantic or modern tradition in which meanings are assumed to be hidden all over and in our minds. — jkop
Maybe, according to Fosse, suicide is a silent language... — javi2541997
But, bringing in suicide again, I think this concept is only ambiguous if we dive into the mental state of the readers. Would you consider suicide as ambiguous? — javi2541997
Even here, in a much more direct form of writing communication than in writing a novel, say, where I may get a response in an hour and we can say all sorts of things to each other, even this at the social level is a shadow of a face to face meeting. And it's a lot more direct than a novel. — Bylaw
I do improv (improvisational theater) now, and that's very social. Further when I'm not in the room doing improv, there is no interference when being social with others — Bylaw
Secondary, to the intrinsically hurtful act, there is usually a further communicative act associated, with the suicide act. This may be a suicide note, which may serve to either increase or decrease the hurt, often very intentionally, or the suicide act may be accompanied by a physical assault on others. When the others are designated as enemies, this may elevate the hurtful act to the level of honourable. In this way of looking at suicide, whether it is considered good or bad, depends on how the hurt of the secondary level of meaning, the more explicit meaning, is directed. — Metaphysician Undercover
He started to feel more confident and comfortable writing drama thanks to the use of 'pauses', because he interpreted this as a silent language. Do you agree? How do you improvise pauses in your room or wherever you do this? — javi2541997
A bit. I have distance students and I knew that a certain kind of reality was missing for them. Generally they get feedback from me on their homework via text. But after the pandemic people started taking distance classes who should not be taking distance classes. Less discipline, less skills, poor time management and so on. Also, I think they were people who needed to be embarrassed or afraid of the teacher. Before the distance students I have were highly motivated and driven. So, I started sending them feedback as audio files online. They hear my voice. I considered videos, but frankly that requires more fussing on my part. Anecdotal evidence: I noticed an increase in completed homework. I ended each message with a clear 'and I expect next time that.....*Do you think our exchange through TPF would be different if we used pictures with our real identity rather than logos? — javi2541997
Nonetheless, Fosse highlighted something very important: He started to feel more confident and comfortable writing drama thanks to the use of 'pauses', because he interpreted this as a silent language. Do you agree? How do you improvise pauses in your room or wherever you do this? — javi2541997
If I may also reply to this...I think Fosse is also referring to the musicality of spoken language. In music every pause, and its length, are carefully considered. In 'drama' in the widest sense, pauses provide and transform meaning. In comedy, for instance, timing is everything. The saddest exchanges can be made funny to an audience with the right pauses. — mcdoodle
I've written quite a lot of drama and feel the craft side of Fosse's remarks are on the mark. — mcdoodle
And you can put pauses in literature, but it's not the same thing and it's not more social than the rest of the writing process, which isn't very social. — Bylaw
Less discipline, less skills, poor time management and so on. Also, I think they were people who needed to be embarrassed or afraid of the teacher. — Bylaw
I mean, my background is nearly entirely progressive education. As in, the students bear all the responsibility. But here I am dealing with immigrants coming from cultures where their teachers were like Lords and they were peasants. If I could get every teacher to go the progressive route, I'd back off and just let these students fail until finally the rumor got around that you just had to be your own boss and fast. My style is a compromise between giving them the opportunity to learn and the smell of an authority. They are adults and I have no real power over them except the grade at the end (pass or fail). And unfortunately conveying expectations in a nebulous context does actually help them. The most successful teachers, with better statistics than me are much tougher. Which then gets these people into universities or jobs faster. So, I've learned to go against my habit, philosophy and even values.I have always been afraid of authorities such as teachers. I believe some folks were just pretending they were embarrassed or afraid, but for those who are genuinely afraid of authorities, going to school was a nightmare. I suffered the same fear when Fosse was a kid and he ran away from class because he was afraid of standing in class, with the teacher and the mates looking at him. — javi2541997
I start to wonder if written language has musicality or not, or if it is just monotonous... — javi2541997
Although I agree that pauses and length are very considered in plays, I start to wonder if written language has musicality or not, or if it is just monotonous... — javi2541997
I suffered the same fear when Fosse was a kid and he ran away from class because he was afraid of standing in class, with the teacher and the mates looking at him. — javi2541997
I can understand that it could be devastating for the family and friends who are close to the suicidal. — javi2541997
Are you trying to argue that suicide is also hurtful for the suicidal? — javi2541997
The audience members are allowed freedom to explore their own imaginations not being constrained by the words of language, but the freedom is kind of illusionary as it only occurs within the boundaries already created by the activities which, which are a product of the author's mind in the first place. — Metaphysician Undercover
First of all, you can answer this and comment on the rest of the thread. I fully appreciate your contribution and opinions. Honestly, I haven't thought about the musicality of spoken language, and being more precise, I think I haven't paid attention to it because I was mainly focused on how Fosse went from written language to spoken language. As you explained, there are techniques regarding these methods which are important to write drama. Although I agree that pauses and length are very considered in plays, I start to wonder if written language has musicality or not, or if it is just monotonous... — javi2541997
Thus, it almost goes without saying, that writing is reminiscent of
music. And at a certain time, in my teens, I went more or less directly from
only being engaged with music, to writing. I actually completely stopped both
playing music myself and listening to music, and started to write, and in my
writing, I tried to create something of what I experienced when I played.
That’s what I did then – and what I still do.
A lot of people are drawn to a rich fantasy life because of their social phobia. Many writers seem to be drawn to the written word because it is a way of being social without needing to be directly with people. I was a writer for some years (newspaper and magazine feature articles, reviews, op eds) and it can be very seductive to drop 'bombs' via prose and not be there for when they go off. In writing, you can say what you need to say safely and carefully, with time for preparation, in a way that many could never do in person, in conversation. — Tom Storm
But what do you mean when you say that words constrain imaginations? — jkop
I think that a true description of an imagination is constrained by what one imagines. — jkop
Writing allows one to talk to people without giving them the capacity to reply — Metaphysician Undercover
I think that has resulted in the spoken word influencing how I write. I find a lot of academic writing pointlessly stuffy and long-winded, but a danger of writing more directly is that academics can think you're just stupid — mcdoodle
One difficulty in learning from Fosse, as regards philosophical writing, is that silences and pauses are subtle and illuminating in fiction or memoir, but unwise in writing about thought. — mcdoodle
Language is also like jewelry or a shiny toy when used with some creativity and vitality. — Tom Storm
In writing, you can say what you need to say safely and carefully, with time for preparation, in a way that many could never do in person, in conversation. — Tom Storm
The suicide note can also be used to increase the hurt. Further, certain suicide techniques can be used to increase the hurt to others, and suicide can be carried out for the purpose of hurting others. I do not see how it is possible to remove the hurtfulness from it. — Metaphysician Undercover
That's why it is often argued that suicide is extremely selfish. — Metaphysician Undercover
It depends on what is in the notes. For example, if there is blameAlthough I agree that the hurtfulness of suicide cannot be removed, I still don't see why this act (plus the suicide note) can increase the hurt. — javi2541997
Presents a discursive analysis of 172 suicide notes left by 120 suicide victims. Instead of searching for the underlying psychological reasons for suicide in the content of notes, the authors argue that such notes should be viewed as acts of communication which serve to manage the blame accorded to both author and recipients of the suicide note. Consequently notes may provide evidence of socially shared beliefs as to when suicide is more or less acceptable. The analysis largely confirms this approach. It is found that matters relating to blame are referred to more frequently than any other issue (87% of notes). The precise arguments which are used to justify the actions of both self and others are then described in detail and some evidence is provided that the nature of these arguments may vary as a function of the social position of the author and also the identity of the recipient. The implications of these findings, and for a general use of a discursive approach to suicide, are then discussed. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2016 APA, all rights reserved)
And this, I think is an oversimiplification in the other direction. People who commit suicide may be in what they consider unendurable pain with no way out. Could be physical, more often emotional. I wouldn't want someone to cling to a nightmare for my sake. And that's not how I would try to talk them out of it. I think adding guilt on top of someone's suicidal ideation isn't really helpful, much less somehow correct.That's why it is often argued that suicide is extremely selfish. — Metaphysician Undercover
The analysis largely confirms this approach. It is found that matters relating to blame are referred to more frequently than any other issue (87% of notes).
But as social creatures it can also be - again, not necessarily - an act that is in part revenge. Or showing others what they have done. Or showing others that they no longer have the person - 'feel that loss of me' — Bylaw
I don't know. I mean, I think most of us can, at least in down or cranky moments, feel blame for others around us. We may question this and shift out of it in a later mood. We may think we have a bad attitude, but it's a fairly common attitude. Someone who is mightily depressed or suffering from PTSD may experience what is passing and mood dependent in others, much more deeply and for longer periods of time. Again, this doesn't mean any specific suicide has this attitude.But this only happens if there is such a controversial relationship between the suicidal and the rest. — javi2541997
Sure, this can certainly be the case also.Yet, it can be the scenario where a suicidal decides to commit suicide because he is bored of life or he feels depressed for some reasons which are not necessarily caused by others. I attempt to explain with these examples that suicide is an individual act that sometimes can affect others... — javi2541997
But why bother go on when not one of those younger selves will ever read me. I can't go on, but I go on anyway, out of spite, or kicks, because at this age I've forgotten how to do anything else. — 180 Proof
Although I agree that the hurtfulness of suicide cannot be removed, I still don't see why this act (plus the suicide note) can increase the hurt. Whose hurt are we referring to? I can only imagine suicide as a revenge act, but in most cases, this rarely happens. — javi2541997
A person with suicidal thoughts starts giving up on life, and this makes him or her not feel motivated by anything, not even revenge. — javi2541997
Suicide is only considered selfish if the suicidal person was loved or esteemed by others. Many people die in the pure state of loneliness, and nobody ever remembers them... — javi2541997
People who commit suicide may be in what they consider unendurable pain with no way out. — Bylaw
But this only happens if there is such a controversial relationship between the suicidal and the rest. Yet, it can be the scenario where a suicidal decides to commit suicide because he is bored of life or he feels depressed for some reasons which are not necessarily caused by others. I attempt to explain with these examples that suicide is an individual act that sometimes can affect others... — javi2541997
Which is precisely what the others are expecting if they believe this. We would allow this kind of thinking for many decisions. They will be disappointed if I don't [go to the wedding, movies, Friday bowling, whatever] but I had a bad fall and it would cause me a lot of pain just to go and watch] The criticism eats itself and as I said after what you quoted, it add a guilt to an already painful situation. We are constantly making decisions out of our own needs and taking care of ourselves in ways we certainly do not for random neighbors and distant cousins, but even, because we are closest to ourselves, responsible for ourselves, making decisions that may not please others, but because of what we want and don't want. Selfish is pejorative. It is certainly a decision to do something that one wants to do that others may not want. And if one has lived with some love, then most will not like it at all. Nor would they if you moved to France, probably either, because of modelling or it was the dreamt of home you always wanted. A woman wants a career and her boyfriend and parents want her to have a kid. Someone leaves a sect they are in and every single person they have know is sad and upset. Are these situations also the definition of selfishness because they put their desires and wants before those of the people they know, even love? It's certain self-oriented to make these decisions. And these outcomes may seem positive or neutral - at least to some - so, they're ok. Move to France and you may be permanently removing yourself from people's lives. And in the main were before the internet.This is not the way to escape the accusation of selfishness. No matter how intense and unendurable the pain may be, to put one's own interests, (to end the pain), as having priority over the interests of others, is the very definition of "selfish". — Metaphysician Undercover
Therefore, as much as the suicidal person is not motivated for "revenge", people close to that person may apprehend this type of meaning through the silent language. The silent language communicates through people's feelings, which is a sort of instinctual reaction, so that the receiver's conscious mind responds according to one's feelings. — Metaphysician Undercover
Here's what I believe are a few key points to consider chronologically. His loneliness was initially not created intentionally, it was the result of his innate personality along with the way that he received the silent language (feelings) of others in his formative youth. He first coped with the loneliness by playing music. In adolescence he turned to writing, and then sought to increase the loneliness because it was highly inspirational, and contributive to his writing. Then he slowly came to realize the incompleteness of the loneliness and how it was the desire for companionship that really inspired the writing. — Metaphysician Undercover
Which is precisely what the others are expecting if they believe this. We would allow this kind of thinking for many decisions. They will be disappointed if I don't [go to the wedding, movies, Friday bowling, whatever] but I had a bad fall and it would cause me a lot of pain just to go and watch] The criticism eats itself and as I said after what you quoted, it add a guilt to an already painful situation. We are constantly making decisions out of our own needs and taking care of ourselves in ways we certainly do not for random neighbors and distant cousins, but even, because we are closest to ourselves, responsible for ourselves, making decisions that may not please others, but because of what we want and don't want. Selfish is pejorative. It is certainly a decision to do something that one wants to do that others may not want. And if one has lived with some love, then most will not like it at all. Nor would they if you moved to France, probably either, because of modelling or it was the dreamt of home you always wanted. A woman wants a career and her boyfriend and parents want her to have a kid. Someone leaves a sect they are in and every single person they have know is sad and upset. Are these situations also the definition of selfishness because they put their desires and wants before those of the people they know, even love? It's certain self-oriented to make these decisions. And these outcomes may seem positive or neutral - at least to some - so, they're ok. Move to France and you may be permanently removing yourself from people's lives. And in the main were before the internet. — Bylaw
Understood, why am I to disagree with those good points? Nevertheless, I still think that the receiver is not a key element of suicide. You are treating the receiver as a person who necessarily represents the cause of suicide, and this is not necessarily the main point. — javi2541997
Keep in mind that there are people who commit suicide because they feel lonely. In this case specifically, there is no receiver for communicating the silent language of suicide. Then, this act happens unnoticed. — javi2541997
According to this data, lonely individuals tend to be more suicidal than social ones. We can conclude that those suicidal individuals have no receivers for their acts because loneliness is the main cause of this thought. — javi2541997
Very interesting what you wrote in this paragraph, and I liked it. But would you consider it a desire rather than just the average transformation we all experience in our lives? I don't know to what extent Fosse desired companionship, but he started to learn more about his life and communicative skills. He began to have a fear of speaking in public, and he ended up reading a lecture in a Nobel ceremony. He just faced his fears. — javi2541997
This would be a sort of odd behaviour, actively writing to no one, and even intentionally hiding the material to ensure that it was never read. Would this be indicative of mental illness, or can we say that a person who keeps a personal diary, and ensures that no one will ever read it, is acting in a sane way? How can this be reasonable? — Metaphysician Undercover
We have to consider that anyone in proximity will be affected by the suicide, in some, usually negative way. — Metaphysician Undercover
I don't have a strong relationship of confidence with them, so if I disappear or die, they would not notice it. Hmm, my neighbors? The building porter? Who exactly would miss me if I am extremely isolated? — javi2541997
Again, if my suicide would negatively affect someone, the latter had to respect or care about me previously. — javi2541997
This discussion reminds me of the debate on the tree that falls down, but nobody heard or noticed it... — javi2541997
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