Franky, that's shoehorning. A company, a marriage, a mortgage, a promise - these are not physical. Destroy the building, the company continues. Burn the certificate, the marriage remains. Shoot all the bankers, the mortgage is still owed. But that you can't see this helps explain why you think you have no obligations. Humans build a world of purpose and intent around them. You live inside that world, and deal with it every day, but like the allegorical fish in water you can't see it.At base, they are physical objects in the world. — AmadeusD
Burn the certificate, the marriage remains. Shoot all the bankers, the mortgage is still owed. — Banno
Meh. Not my problem, except that it prevents you seeing the solutions to these philosophical issues. — Banno
Did I claim anything about what - exactly - establishes a state of affairs? — creativesoul
↪creativesoul Trouble is, "a state of affairs" traps folk into thinking about how things are, nti how they ought be. One of the issues with taking a substantive view of truth. — Banno
You seem to be trying quite hard to avoid this, which was why I changed the question. — AmadeusD
You are mistaken. — Banno
I've no idea what you're on about. I think that you're misattributing meaning to my posts. — creativesoul
Tell me how you would go about enforcing a property interest if there's no record anywhere of you having any interest in the property?
Given I deal with this problem for my clients regularly - this should be quite interesting. — AmadeusD
Those words were just used by you for the first time, and yet I'm somehow avoiding something that you've just now expressed. — creativesoul
Enforcing it is not the question. It's whether or not the agreement remains intact. The agreement is not physical. The record of it is. — creativesoul
If you have time, could you tell us if a contract, marriage or mortgage ceases to exist if the documents on which it is written are destroyed? — Banno
and so on are much than the physical item: — Banno
Wills are an obvious exception. — Banno
I'm not speaking for Banno, although I suspect he would agree. — creativesoul
Your argument is that therefore the contract is physical?If there is literally no record of an agreement it will not be accepted by a court. — AmadeusD
You made the claim that they are physical. I pointed out that they are more than just physical.No. This needs to read "any record of it whatever, is destroyed" which is the case i made. — AmadeusD
↪Leontiskos Nice list. Yes, that's the way to proceed, looking at how the words around "obligation" are used rather than just making up a definition. — Banno
There's more than the paperwork. There's the actions and intents that form it and are formed by it. — Banno
Yeah, I'm still working through all this... for me "states of affairs" are just what's happening at some specific time and place. It's a proxy for the term "reality" and the phrase "the way things are", etc.
There's always Hume's guillotine. I see it. However, I think there's a way to render it toothless. — creativesoul
I am reluctant to enter into the fray — Leontiskos
In loose terms it brings a previously non-existent obligation into existence. There is now something in the world that was not there previously: the obligation — Banno
In loose terms it brings a previously non-existent obligation into existence. There is now something in the world that was not there previously: the obligation
— Banno
What bizarre, magical thinking. As if, *poof!*, a newly minted promise, shiny and golden, floats down from The Land of Ought.
The promise exists in the mind of the promiser, and their audience. That's it. — hypericin
'I promise to give you a pie", uttered without. duress and so forth, places the speaker under an obligation to provide the pie. It brings about the obligation. — Banno
What is claimed here is not at odds with that. We agree that the promise now exists, where prior to the promising it did not.Take care with "that's it" A contract to build a house usually leads to there being a house, which does not exist only in someone's mind. Unless you are Joshs.The promise exists in the mind of the promiser, and their audience. That's it. — hypericin
I'd drop the superfluous "real", which misleads into idealism of one sort or another. Thoughts are objects in that we can predicate to and identify them. In other ways they are not like tables and chairs. Again, Austin's analysis of "real" shows how to avoid being misled.Among the alternatives to physicalism is the idea that thoughts are real objects in the world. — Joshs
If you have time, could you tell us if a contract, marriage or mortgage ceases to exist if the documents on which it is written are destroyed?
Since in many cases a contract does not even need to be written down in order to be valid, it would be odd. Wills are an obvious exception.
Sorry to bother you with such trivialities. — Banno
It involves lawyers. Of course it does.It depends. — Ciceronianus
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