I don't remember ever seeing idea being thought of as something that exists mind-independent — Lionino

Have you... heard of Plato?

Have you... heard of Plato? — Pneumenon

Yep, studied him a bit. Where does he say ideas are mind-independent?

But it seems to me that the underlying motive here, whether it enters into specific discussions or not, is a discomfort with ideas because they're immaterial. And we wind up trying to pull an immaterial rabbit out of a material hat, over and over again. It mirrors the issues with the intentionality of the mental. — Pneumenon

Isn't all thoughts ideas? Even the idea of "Getting rid of ideas"?

I agree with you, but a die-hard materialist would consider this circular reasoning.

I'll argue that the two categories of real existents in the poll present a false dichotomy. I didn't vote for either option since I deem them both mistaken. — javra

Exactly, because, as pointed out we are

trying to pull an immaterial rabbit out of a material hat — Pneumenon

We don't need to prove that ideas exist. Everything we do and think is testament not only to their existence but also their efficacy. I just finished Deacon's Incomplete Nature, which is an excellent framework for re-integrating the fundamental aspects of intentionality across the entire physical spectrum through morphodynamics and teleodynamics.

but a die-hard materialist would consider this circular reasoning. — Pneumenon

The circular reasoning is also an idea.

but a die-hard materialist would consider this circular reasoning.
— Pneumenon

The circular reasoning is also an idea. — Corvus

It is. And rational-idealism is an idea that can be virtuously circular. Materialism isn't. Metaphysical materialism is "autologically unsound."

It is. And rational-idealism is an idea that can be virtuously circular. Materialism isn't. Metaphysical materialism is "autologically unsound." — Pantagruel

Yeah, I see what you mean. It would be like saying Experiencial Empiricism.
But here we are talking about just "Idea". It is convenient to name all the building blocks in the minds as "Ideas". If not, what else would be a proper name for it?

A tree I have cut down this summer, has gone from the sight. But I still can remember how it looked in my mind. So I can say I have the idea of the tree, which I cut down. Without the concept of Idea, I wouldn't know what I would call that mental image of the tree which has gone forever from the world.

Agreed. The word idea accurately reflects the meaning of the idea idea.

The word idea accurately reflects the meaning of the idea idea. — Pantagruel

Why did you write the "idea" twice? "the idea idea"? Why did you do that?

I was having the idea of the tree which was cut down this summer. The tree no longer exists in the world. This afternoon I was able to have "the idea" of the tree as an image, when it was standing in the field. I cannot call the image of the tree nothing but an idea of the tree.

Why did you write the "idea" twice? "the idea idea"? Why did you do that? — Corvus

Wouldn't that be syntactically correct? The word ouch accurately reflects the meaning of the idea ouch. The word idea...etc.

Wouldn't that be syntactically correct? The word ouch accurately reflects the meaning of the idea ouch. The word idea...etc. — Pantagruel

Nope. Ideas can mean mental images too. And even when an idea is a word, they are different. Words would be for speaking or writing. Ideas are the contents in your thoughts. Word can mean ideas, but words are not ideas themselves.

But I didn't say it was the idea, I said it accurately reflected it, in the same way that (saying) the word "ouch" accurately reflects the idea of "ouch" because it is a manifestation the content of the idea (ouch).

I just finished Deacon's Incomplete Nature, which is an excellent framework for re-integrating the fundamental aspects of intentionality across the entire physical spectrum though morphodynamics and teleodynamics. — Pantagruel

I'll put it on my list of books to read. Thanks for mentioning.

But I didn't say it was the idea, I said it accurately reflected it, in the same way that (saying) the word "ouch" accurately reflects the idea of "ouch" because it is a manifestation the content of the idea (ouch). — Pantagruel

The word "ouch" reflects the idea of "ouch" sounds illogical. Words are uttered by the speaker, and it has no ability to perform reflection or consideration. They are passive entity. How does a word reflect an idea?

The word "ouch" reflects the idea of "ouch" sounds illogical. Words are uttered by the speaker, and it has no ability to perform reflection or consideration. They are passive entity. How does a word reflect an idea? — Corvus

Sounds illogical? The essence of language is the yoking together of sign and idea. The onomatopoeiac function highlights this connection where the word becomes a symbolic projection or extension of the sound. Chirp. If the word "chirp" could be uttered by a bird, it would be exactly what it is. And, presumably, it would also represent the mental state that evoked it. By your reasoning, nothing represents an idea.

Ouch.

edit. This from the RL Stevenson short story I'm reading, perfectly expresses the sense of the synthesis or synergy of the idea and the form of expression of the idea. The description of the parson's daughter as seen by an admiring mind:

It was not possible to separate her thoughts from her appearance. The turn of her wrist, the still sound of her voice, the light in her eyes, the lines of her body, fell in tune with her grave and gentle words, like the accompaniment that sustains and harmonises the voice of the singer.

Sounds illogical? The essence of language is the yoking together of sign and idea. The onomatopoeiac function highlights this connection where the word becomes a symbolic projection or extension of the sound. Chirp. If the word "chirp" could be uttered by a bird, it would be exactly what it is. And, presumably, it would also represent the mental state that evoked it. By your reasoning, nothing represents an idea.

Ouch. — Pantagruel

You are in deep confusion on the utterance of Ouch as a motor reaction of the verbal expression as a representation of the mental state. Your utterance of Ouch was from the motor reaction which was a pre-mental state unless it was a premeditated act.

You are in deep confusion on the utterance of Ouch as a motor reaction of the verbal expression as a representation of the mental state. — Corvus

We have wandered far astray the original point and this statement of yours isn't a rebuttal. If anything, it makes my point but tacks on an critical ad hominem for some reason. I'd suggest dropping it.

We have wandered far astray the original point and this statement of yours isn't a rebuttal. If anything, it makes my point but tacks on an critical ad hominem for some reason. I'd suggest dropping it. — Pantagruel

I recall that you started the deviation by putting down "the idea idea", then claiming the word of ouch reflects the idea of ouch, which fell off the cliff of the topic. :chin: :wink:

There are different types of ideas.

1. Subjective
2. Objective
3. Platonic

The issue seems to be with your definition of idea. Do you mean every product of brain activity, or every product of thinking?

There are different types of ideas.

1. Subjective
2. Objective
3. Platonic — Corvus

Ok. And how are you able to distinguish those? The only way you can discriminate a subjective from an objective idea is through the instrumentality of the words subjective and objective. The whole notion of an idea presupposes and entails its symbolization. Without that, it's just a "mental state".

Subjective ideas - Ideas when one thinks, imagines, recalls ...etc. The content of the subjective mental state when one thinks about something. Ideas are the elements in the propositions and judgements, but not the propositions or judgements themselves. So when one claims "The sun is bright today.", the sun, bright, today are separate ideas in one's mind, which composed the proposition.

Objective ideas - The ideas and information which exist in the public, be it known or unknown such as the number of people who have ever lived since the start of human civilisation. The number of grapes produced in Europe for the last 100 years. The total number of stars and all the celestial objects in the universe. These information / ideas do exist in the universe, but humans don't know them. They are the objective ideas.

Platonic ideas - In Plato, ideas were used to describe an object in visual perspective. Ideas are also all the universals in the world of ideas. The ideas are the real existence lasting forever, not the material objects which will soon perish.

In British empiricists like Locke, Berkeley and Hume, ideas were equivalent to perception itself. So perceiving an idea of apple meant, having an idea of apple. And also having an idea of the apple meant to be able to describe the apple linguistically.

In British empiricists like Locke, Berkeley and Hume, ideas were equivalent to perception itself. So perceiving an idea of apple meant, having an idea of apple. And also having an idea of the apple meant to be able to describe the apple linguistically. — Corvus

Hence my characterization of an idea as part of an overarching performative context, versus some kind of abstract noumenal entity. The Platonic conception of form ignores the dialectic reality that universals and particulars are mutual grounds for one another (gestalt).

Hence my characterization of an idea as part of an overarching performative context, versus some kind of abstract noumenal entity. — Pantagruel

If I pinched you, and you screamed "ouch", then your utterance of "ouch" is not the idea of "ouch". It is a motor-system response, which is the biological nature.

However, if you thought about the word "ouch", and trying to find what would be the equivalent meaning of the word in Chinese, then it would be an idea of "ouch".

If I pinched you, and you screamed "ouch", then your utterance of "ouch" is not the idea of "ouch". It is a motor-system response, which is the biological nature. — Corvus

Ideas are both rooted in and grow from the soil of experience, as does language. The idea of equality is both the experiences of inequality that suggest it to the moral mind, and the expressions of tolerance, respect, etc., which it engenders.

Provided it is understood which of your 4 categories (assuming what you say about British empiricists is a separate category) of idea is being discussed this should be straightforward.

I would point out there is a grey area where experiences become ideas. Do you see experience as fitting one of the categories?
Also there is the position of instinct in this. My cat has an instinctive response to sudden movement. But if it’s a familiar movement, or sound my cat doesn’t have the same response as to an unfamiliar movement. Has the cat thought about this, or is it a learned instinct? What is it about the cat which enables this behaviour/experience, to an highly sensitive degree?
Is the cat thinking and if so, is it all thought, or is there a cut of point?

You don't defeat a charge of circularity by going in a circle again.

You don't defeat a charge of circularity by going in a circle again. — Pneumenon

Which part was exactly going in a circle?

I would point out there is a grey area where experiences become ideas. Do you see experience as fitting one of the categories? — Punshhh

I think experience can be abstracted as ideas, but experience itself is not ideas. Ideas are the mental entities which has been abstracted in thoughts.

What is it about the cat which enables this behaviour/experience, to an highly sensitive degree?
Is the cat thinking and if so, is it all thought, or is there a cut of point? — Punshhh

Cats appear to think, but it is difficult to grasp exactly what or how they think about due to their lack of linguistic capabilities. We can only infer their thinkings via their actions, and it usually appear to be intelligent. But it appears to be also animal instinct and evolutionary nature too.
I am not 100% sure if we could say what cats think could be classed as same class or category of human thoughts, therefore cats have ideas. If they do, then it is intelligent in animal world, but very limited compared to what human minds do.