Alexander the Great had followers who believed he was the son of a god. — Athena
Why would you think Jesus was a real person and not Abraham? — Athena
Should we passively let people die if that is the will of God, or should we take a moral stand and do what people working together can do? — Athena
Rather than argue about whether Abraham was a real person I think that it is within the stories that the substantive issues lie. The story of the sacrifice of Isaac, for example. It is held up as a shining example of faith, but I see it as an example of fanaticism. — Fooloso4
hen it is very likely that you are a deluded fool — universeness
I think the story was created to stop people from sacrificing their sons to a god. — Athena
I don't think they take them literally — Athena
For me, the importance of lineage plays a role in believing Abraham was a real person. — Athena
But love, it doesn't matter. :grin: The placebo effect works and here is the problem with arguing that God does not exist with people who experience the blessing of that God every day. — Athena
As I called on Artemitris to help me get to civilization I was being open-minded allowing myself to feel protected and seek a safer situation. — Athena
I agree, and the best way to do that is to do all we can to discover better and more robust ways, to protect human life against all scenarios that might destroy or damage it. Practical, logical, effective methodology, not appeals to non-existent sources of aid. The placebo effect is only useful for encouraging a PMA or positive mental attitude but it is a very limited and 'hit or miss' type methodology. It should only be used in desperation. It is pretty close to a 'if you are falling from a high building, you are as well to flap your arms, perhaps you will grab a flagpole on the way down,' act of desperation, just like 'oh please help me Artemitris!'Creating space for the good to happen increases the chances of good happening. — Athena
What is the nature of the literally-minded person? :shade: When we close our minds and get too uptight about what we believe, it is fanatical, no matter what we believe. — Athena
Brothers are often the source of division rather than unity. — Fooloso4
Are gods not a far bigger source of division rather than unity? — universeness
Are we talking about the lineage and 'birthrights' (a far more controversial term) of real historical people or invented characters who appeared in ancient fables? — universeness
Do you think the Moses fable is the first story about unification in human history? — universeness
We have been exchanging and inventing such stories since our days as hunter gatherers. — universeness
There is no evidence of any significance at all, that the Moses character, as described in the bible, was ever a real person. — universeness
Is there any character from the bible that you believe 100% existed and did exactly what the bible describes they did? — universeness
Are you any flavour of theist sir? — universeness
I am just trying to confirm whether or not you are simply making academic/technical/philosophical points or you are supporting your own or the theistic worldview of others. — universeness
I can't remember if you have already declared yourself theist or atheist. — universeness
I could not agree more.Genesis 1 says that God made man in their own image. I say that man makes gods in their own image. — Fooloso4
I am interested in the interpretation of texts. What these texts say about the gods is a reflection of what they say about man and In turn they have influenced how we have come to see ourselves. Genesis 1 says that God made man in their own image. I say that man makes gods in their own image.
But a theological discussion should also take into consideration the other root. Two texts to be considered are Plato's Euthyphro and Aristotle's Metaphysics. Both put philosophy above the claims of the theologians and do so by pointing to the limits of what we know, which falls short of knowledge of first things.
Another is the revolution of Modernity in the work of Bacon, Descartes, and others. Until quite recently all educated westerners read and knew the Bible. The theologians read it piously, the philosophers impiously. Theirs is a program for the perfectibility of man. To will without error. In other words, to make man into a god. What separates men and gods in Genesis is overcome. — Fooloso4
Live long and prosper! We need such thinking and thinkers to thrive and such as the MAGA style of thinking and thinkers to 'evolve' a little more, imo.I am pistically atheist and epistemically agnostic. Lacking knowledge I make no claims about gods but I am not uncertain in terms of what I believe and how I live. — Fooloso4
No, you were just trying to stay calm and carry on. Avoid panic in a scary situation and use your focus to think your way out. I also got lost in the Scottish hills once, with a companion, in bad weather. We had no equipment to stay in the hills overnight. We got back, almost 9 hours late, exhausted and confused, scrambling in the dark, with one small torch, losing its power. We learned to be better prepared. Nowadays, the GPS software on mobile phones, makes the chances of getting lost in the wilds, much more unlikely. Your 'Artemitris' appeal has been rendered even more unnecessary, by mobile phone tech, how's that for an example of science making god appeals more and more defunct? — universeness
I agree, and the best way to do that is to do all we can to discover better and more robust ways, to protect human life against all scenarios that might destroy or damage it. Practical, logical, effective methodology, not appeals to non-existent sources of aid. The placebo effect is only useful for encouraging a PMA or positive mental attitude but it is a very limited and 'hit or miss' type methodology. It should only be used in desperation. It is pretty close to a 'if you are falling from a high building, you are as well to flap your arms, perhaps you will grab a flagpole on the way down,' act of desperation, just like 'oh please help me Artemitris!'
I am not suggesting being literally minded in all scenario's. But I am also saying that we should never, ever, ever value special pleading to gods as anything other that acts of sheer desperation and it is far far better to keep as calm as you can in difficult situations and use your rationale and whatever practical and logical skills you have to survive whatever threat you are facing.
In your scenario, planning your way back to civilisation and applying that plan, was much more useful and significant, than your self-comforting(placebo effect) appeal to a non-existent.
How about considering it is as we believe it to be? We can experience a wonderful love or not.
— Athena
I found 'the grass is greener' nature of Tom Storm's perspective and mine amusing. I'm not seeing how what you said is related.
3 days ago — wonderer1
The Maccabean Revolt (Hebrew: מרד החשמונאים) was a Jewish rebellion led by the Maccabees against the Seleucid Empire and against Hellenistic influence on ...
Maccabees · Judas Maccabeus · Battle of Elasa · Seleucid army — Wikipedia
Merit hiring was practiced by the ancient Greeks which led to a revolt with the Hebrews who wanted to maintain their system of jobs depending on heritage, not merit. — Athena
Seleucid King Antiochus IV Epiphanes launched a massive campaign of repression against the Jewish religion in 168 BCE.
What is the source of the claim that the revolt was in response to a threat to their system of jobs depending on heritage, not merit? — Fooloso4
In the 2nd century BCE, Judea lay between the Ptolemaic Kingdom (based in Egypt) and the Seleucid Empire (based in Syria), monarchies which had formed following the death of Alexander the Great. Judea had initially come under Ptolemaic rule but fell to the Seleucids around 200 BCE. Judea at that time had been affected by the Hellenization initiated by Alexander the Great. Some Jews, mainly those of the urban upper class, notably the Tobiad family, wished to dispense with Jewish law and to adopt a Greek lifestyle. According to historian Victor Tcherikover, the main motive for the Tobiads' Hellenism was economic and political.[10] The Hellenizing Jews built a gymnasium in Jerusalem, competed in international Greek games, "removed their marks of circumcision and repudiated the holy covenant".[11] — wikipedia
The author of the First Book of Maccabees regards the Maccabean revolt as a rising of pious Jews against the Seleucid king (who had tried to eradicate their religion) and against the Jews who supported him. The author of the Second Book of Maccabees presents the conflict as a struggle between "Judaism" and "Hellenism", concepts which he coined.[16] Most modern scholars argue that King Antiochus reacted to a civil war between traditionalist Jews in the Judean countryside and Hellenized Jews in Jerusalem,[17][18] though the king's response of persecuting the religious traditionalists was unusual in antiquity, and was the immediate provocation for the revolt.[19] According to Joseph P. Schultz, modern scholarship "considers the Maccabean revolt less as an uprising against foreign oppression than as a civil war between the orthodox and reformist parties in the Jewish camp",[20] but John J. Collins writes that while the civil war between Jewish leaders led to the king's new policies, it is wrong to see the revolt as simply a conflict between Hellenism and Judaism, since "[t]he revolt was not provoked by the introduction of Greek customs (typified by the building of a gymnasium) but by the persecution of people who observed the Torah by having their children circumcised and refusing to eat pork."[19]
— wikipedia
As some Muslims are peaceful people some Christians and some Jews are peaceful people, and some of each are the enemies of peace on earth and we need to be honest about this reality. — Athena
In place of this false unique — Isaac Kramnick
The problem, I think aptly identified by Sam Harris, is the ideology, not the people. There are varying degrees of commitment, but the further from a true commitment we get, the less problematic things become. Which is a serious indictment of the ideology, rather than elements of human nature. You can get almost every positive aspect from religion (particularly the Abrahamics) without it, or at least without the type of commitment religion requires.
Conversely, you can't randomly get the type of despicable behaviours we see out of the depths of religion (particularly hte Abrahamics) without that kind of commitment, and in most cases, without that particular ideology.
I've a love/hate (take those words very lightly) relationship with those who 'adhere' to a religion by bastardizing it - they avoid the negatives, but also avoid a genuine commitment. — AmadeusD
Why not the people and the psychological and sociological causes of their behavior? As I see the mess in Israel and Palestine millions of people of just trying to live their lives and a handful of people have brought them to war. — Athena
I don't think ideology is the point of power but male egos — Athena
The Muslims who are in favor of war are the same as the Jews and Christians who like to believe they are doing to the will of God whenever they engage in war. — Athena
t partially the Enlightenment has acted as a shield against runaway Christianity for the most part. — AmadeusD
the Enlightenment has acted as a shield against runaway Christianity for the most part. We have nothing similar for Islam given it's self-imposed exile from Western thought. — AmadeusD
Believe me, dear Sir: there is not in the British empire a man who more cordially loves a union with Great Britain than I do. But, by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the British Parliament propose; and in this, I think I speak the sentiments of America.
— Thomas Jefferson, November 29, 1775[10] — Wikipedia
During the late 1800s and early 1900s, the Anti-Imperialist League used Faneuil Hall to protest America’s growing imperialism. The league argued against militarization and the creation of an overseas American Empire and asserted that the principles the United States had been founded upon needed to extend to foreign policy as well. — Boston National Historical Park
"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."[62]
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. — Wikipedia
The Creator and Nature's God is not the God of Abraham. The enlightenment is about empirical thinking, not being a subject to authority that must be obeyed. — Athena
What are those principles and why is Jefferson in such a huff? — Athena
Islam's separation from Western thought? How does that work? — Athena
To this day Evangelicals fear that unfamiliar information could be Satan and should not be trusted, so do not wear a mask or get a vaccine but turn against the government based on empirical information because it is the handmaiden of the Devil trying to steal our souls. :brow: — Athena
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