Objectification is alive and well. And it's okay. I think it's the term itself that offends people. — 3017amen

Amen. I also think this goes for (perhaps entailed by the above situation) discrimination too. We do it all the time with great success

More than good or bad looks, I have the feeling, aided by personal experience, that you can determine someone's personality from their face alone. Obviously, it is not fail-proof and not fully accurate, but someone's physiognomy tells you more about someone than ten minutes of conversation —or so I think. — Lionino

You know it when you see it.

It's just hard to put it into exact, systematic, interpersonally verifiable concepts.

You know it when you see it.

It's just hard to put it into exact, systematic, interpersonally verifiable concepts. — baker

:up: :ok:

It is about repeatedly (though not always) confirmed personal experience.

Liberals and communists will hate you now.

They teach kids that beauty does not exist. What
do they care the most are political & electoral correctness. Aesthetics is their biggest enemy. There are communist and liberal "aesthetics" being spread all over the world now. Either you accept that everything should be considered beautiful, or you are banned from the "respectful" world.

I was thinking one day that the reason why portrait-painting developed in Europe more than in other parts of the globe might be (to some degree) that a European face has more expressions & colors than Non-European faces. Do I dare to say this in public?

Maybe I am totally wrong. But the problem today is that I am afraid to learn. We live in a world where we are taught to suppress all thoughts that are not politically correct.

It is about repeatedly (though not always) confirmed personal experience. — Lionino

is this a 'constant conjunction' thing? My experience has been the inverse..

Maybe I am totally wrong. But the problem today is that I am afraid to learn. We live in a world where we are taught to suppress all thoughts that are not politically correct. — Eros1982

Really? Where do you live? Seems to me racism, bigotry and even hatred are frequently expressed in mainstream culture.

I have generally found that there is almost no correlation between a person's appearance and who they are. But it is true that people who scowl and frown a lot may well be unpleasant or preoccupied...

I have generally found that there is almost no correlation between a person's appearance and who they are. But it is true that people who scowl and frown a lot may well be unpleasant or preoccupied... — Tom Storm

Yes, I would say its fairly safe that when people are clearly affectatious in their presentation can be judged on it :P

We live in a world where we are taught to suppress all thoughts that are not politically correct. — Eros1982

It's a real problem. I don't know how many times I've watched a movie that's on all the top critics' lists, or hear the indie-darling record, and think to myself "who the hell actually enjoys this?" Often, it seems like it's a political pill wrapped in the trappings of whatever consumable art/movie/music/etc., and any pure experience is made unsettling and unfulfilling. Art becomes a tool to clobber people into submission, and the definition of "good" or "beautiful" is re-branded as whatever our leading centers of empowered insecurity can produce.

I have generally found that there is almost no correlation between a person's appearance and who they are. — Tom Storm

What do you mean by "appearance"? And what by "who they are"?

What do you mean by "appearance"? And what by "who they are"? — baker

Hi Baker, appearance is what we see when we meet people or see them in pictures. Who they are is their core personality. However, what Tom said about almost no correlation between appearance and who they are -- I disagree slightly. I work with all kinds of people, and so does Tom, I believe. But there are outward clues as to who they are if you look closely.

@Tom Storm, you can disagree with what I said above. I also do not have a scientific backing for what I said.

:up: No problem. I would also add that I never know who a person really is. This would seem to require some divine attributes. :wink: . All I can do is go by experience of how people present and what they do and say.

I would also add that I never know who a person really is. — Tom Storm

This I agree :100:

Looking beautiful is all there is to success in society. — Wittgenstein

I often see the opposite being the case, for some reason. Take one person who is considered by many to be the most beautiful woman of all time: Marilyn Monroe. Her life was filled with misery and ended in disaster. For many 'beautiful' people, their looks are often a burden, not an advantage. (This may be more true for women though, but I am not certain) Many beautiful women are not taken seriously and degraded. When I see a very good looking guy, I immediately feel as if I could not trust him. I almost feel as if one should NOT be good looking if they are to be considered by others as intelligent and trustworthy.

Contrary to most people, I do think that outside beauty can to some extent reflect inside beauty. However it can also reflect other things, such as narcissism. — Lionino

Are good looking people nicer than average looking people, or are good looking people less nice than average looking people?

Are good looking people nicer than average looking people, or are good looking people less nice than average looking people? — Agree-to-Disagree

In my opinion, fat people tend to be quite gleeful and nice, though not always of course.
But on the other hand, generally-ugly people tend to hold a certain sort of resentment towards beautiful people, that beautiful people usually don't show; this resentment leads to some ugliness of character.

↪L'éléphant :up: No problem. I would also add that I never know who a person really is. — Tom Storm

No wonder. Ever notice how who you think the other person in your relationship is changes over time, and who they and you are changes through being affected by the reciprocal interaction of the growing relationship itself?

Are good looking people nicer than average looking people, or are good looking people less nice than average looking people? — Agree-to-Disagree

Interesting question. In my experience, 'good looking' people are less nice.. to me. But that's almost certainly a bias about my desires.

I would say though, traditionally ugly people seem on avg to me more truculent and quick to argue and then dismiss than are people who don't see themselves as somehow already at a disadvantage aesthetically.

In my opinion, fat people tend to be quite gleeful and nice, though not always of course. — Lionino

Let me have men about me that are fat

Caesar
Let me have men about me that are fat,
Sleek-headed men and such as sleep a-nights.
Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look,
He thinks too much; such men are dangerous.

Mark Antony
Fear him not, Caesar, he's not dangerous,
He is a noble Roman, and well given.

Julius Caesar
Would he were fatter! But I fear him not. — Shakespeare

"Shakespeare:
If only I were not as fat and ugly and uncreative"
— Lionino

No wonder. Ever notice how who you think the other person in your relationship is changes over time, and who they and you are changes through being affected by the reciprocal interaction of the growing relationship itself? — Joshs

Thank you for formulating this so eloquently!

appearance is what we see when we meet people or see them in pictures.

Who they are is their core personality. — L'éléphant

How do you tell which is which?

And how do you distinguish between who a person is and who you think said person is?

But there are outward clues as to who they are if you look closely.

"Closely"? I think it's quite obvious.

No wonder. Ever notice how who you think the other person in your relationship is changes over time, and who they and you are changes through being affected by the reciprocal interaction of the growing relationship itself?
— Joshs
Thank you for formulating this so eloquently! — baker

Interesting. I've never really felt anyone around me has changed much over time. Certainly not my partner or significant friends or long term colleagues. If anything people seem to be remarkably consistent. If by change we mean one is no longer being able to anticipate reactions and choices made by the person we think we know. As to how well we 'know' anyone, well that's a matter for a range of interpretations.

But there are outward clues as to who they are if you look closely.

"Closely"? I think it's quite obvious. — baker

Are you really just going to literal-ass this?

Obviously, the outward appearance is "obvious". When I said closely, I meant you would need to ignore the superficial curtsies and social routine so you could see a couple of measures -- integrity, maturity, and respect, for example.

How do you tell which is which?

And how do you distinguish between who a person is and who you think said person is? — baker

By fucking them. Okay, seriously, by spending time with them.

Obviously, the outward appearance is "obvious". When I said closely, I meant you would need to ignore the superficial curtsies and social routine so you could see a couple of measures -- integrity, maturity, and respect, for example. — L'éléphant

This is what I mean, and to me, these things are obvious.
People's bodily appearance is like the picture of Dorian Gray: it depicts all their sins and passions.

And how do you distinguish between who a person is and who you think said person is?
— baker
By fucking them. Okay, seriously, by spending time with them.

This is a philosophy forum. Presumably, you have a systematic methodology for distinguishing between who a person is and who you think said person is.

No wonder. Ever notice how who you think the other person in your relationship is changes over time, and who they and you are changes through being affected by the reciprocal interaction of the growing relationship itself?
— Joshs
Thank you for formulating this so eloquently!
— baker

Interesting. I've never really felt anyone around me has changed much over time. Certainly not my partner or significant friends or long term colleagues. If anything people seem to be remarkably consistent. If by change we mean one is no longer being able to anticipate reactions and choices made by the person we think we know. As to how well we 'know' anyone, well that's a matter for a range of interpretations. — Tom Storm

@Joshs said:
Ever notice how who you think the other person in your relationship is changes over time,

and who they and you are

changes through being affected

by the reciprocal interaction of the growing relationship itself?

You say, "I've never really felt anyone around me has changed much over time". Or is it that you stick with your first impressions of someone?

You say, "I've never really felt anyone around me has changed much over time". Or is it that you stick with your first impressions of someone? — baker

How would I know? I just responded to the idea that we notice people chaining. I don't, generally. Of course you might have noticed that I wrote earlier:

I would also add that I never know who a person really is. — Tom Storm

So perhaps 'first impressions' are not all that significant to me either.

This is what I mean, and to me, these things are obvious.
People's bodily appearance is like the picture of Dorian Gray: it depicts all their sins and passions. — baker

To a certain point, yes.

This is a philosophy forum. Presumably, you have a systematic methodology for distinguishing between who a person is and who you think said person is. — baker

I was actually speaking of people I actually do meet in person and spend time with.
The philosophy forum is probably very limited in providing insight to a person's true personality.

Does Joshs' post that I've now quoted twice say nothing to you?

This is a philosophy forum. Presumably, you have a systematic methodology for distinguishing between who a person is and who you think said person is.
— baker
I was actually speaking of people I actually do meet in person and spend time with.
The philosophy forum is probably very limited in providing insight to a person's true personality. — L'éléphant

*sigh*

I asked, "And how do you distinguish between who a person is and who you think said person is?"
Replying, "Okay, seriously, by spending time with them" is below one would expect at a philosophy forum.

Does Joshs' post that I've now quoted twice say nothing to you? — baker

I've never noticed this. It makes perfect sense though.