• Dermot Griffin
    137
    "To the rational being only the irrational is unendurable, but the rational is endurable." - Epictetus, Discourses

    "A large part of mankind is angry not with the sins, but with the sinners." - Seneca, On Anger

    "Concentrate every minute like a Roman—like a man—on doing what's in front of you with precise and genuine seriousness, tenderly, willingly, with justice. And on freeing yourself from all other distractions." - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

    "As rain breaks through an ill-thatched house, passion will break through an unreflecting mind." - Siddhartha Gautama, The Dhammapada

    I discovered Stoicism when I was 14 through Marcus Aurelius and then again through Epictetus and Seneca when I hit high school but didn't really take what they said seriously until college. I even advocated, in rebellion to my Catholic schooling, a Christianized Stoicism, feigning ignorance that Justus Lipsius attempted this with Neostoicism, and that many Christian intellectuals prior to him attempted the same thing. Buddhism always interested me but I could never understand the technical jargon (and still can't, as Mahayana Buddhism is interesting but hard to understand coming from a western religious and philosophical background; Theravada Buddhism I find easier to understand). Early Buddhism, what I see as Philosophical Buddhism to distinguish this from the religious denominations of Buddhism, interests me because of its similarities to Stoicism. I want to summarize the similarities between both in few points:

    1. Both Stoicism and Buddhism emphasize ethical principles and the cultivation of virtuous behavior. Stoicism encourages individuals to live in accordance with reason and virtue, making the cardinal virtues of wisdom, courage, justice, and temperance very important, while Buddhism promotes ethical conduct as a fundamental aspect of the Eightfold Path.

    2. Both philosophies advocate for mindfulness and inner peace. Stoicism teaches individuals to accept what they cannot control and find tranquility within, irrespective of external circumstances. Buddhism, particularly in the practice of meditation, aims to achieve a similar state of mental clarity and equanimity. In Stoic practice the goal is apatheia, to be without suffering, and this is similar to the Buddhist idea of nirvana, liberation from suffering. The prerequisite, as I see it, for both systems of thought is to achieve a state of tranquility or mindfulness (what the Stoics call ataraxia and the Buddhists call sati).

    3. Both Stoicism and Buddhism advise against excessive attachment to material possessions and the transient nature of external factors. Stoicism teaches the importance of distinguishing between what is within one's control and what is not, while Buddhism highlights the impermanence of worldly attachments as a central tenet in overcoming suffering. Compared to modern systems of thought, modern Stoics and philosophical Buddhists are (or should be) anti-materialist because extreme attachment to material things brings about suffering (what the Stoics call pathos unhealthy emotions, and the Buddhists call tanha, to thirst or crave for something).

    Some of my favorite Stoics are Cleanthes, Chrysippus, Musonius Rufus, Epictetus, Seneca, and Marcus Aurelius. Focusing on Early Buddhism I tend to read Buddhaghosa (although he's not really a representative of Early Buddhism he provides a great canonical way of understanding it) and the Pudgalavada, or "Personalist," school.

    There is a great article in the book Religions and Trade: Religious Formation, Transformation and Cross-Cultural Exchange between East and West exploring contact between Greek and Indian society that can be found here:

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/10.1163/j.ctv2gjwxw0.9.pdf?refreqid=fastly-default%3A89d9f6697029acddfa16391db5d4b078&ab_segments=0%2Fbasic_search_gsv2%2Fcontrol&origin=&initiator=&acceptTC=1
  • Wayfarer
    22.8k
    Very interesting and thank you for it. There has also been some comparative studies of the influence of Buddhism on Pyrrho of Elis and the subsequent formation of Pyrrhonian Scepticism. This also occurred through travels on the Silk Road and the Alexandrian Empire. There was a massive book published in 2008 or so, The Shape of Ancient Thought, Thomas McEvilly, an art historian, who goes into these purported influences in great detail (although when I did Buddhist Studies in 2011-12 there was no mention or awareness of this book by the academics.)

    A question: whilst there are similarities, I think one cardinal difference is the absence in the Greek culture of an equivalent for the belief in saṃsāra and re-birth characteristic of Buddhist and Hindu cultures (although haven't looked at your article yet). I understand these themes were found in the Orphic religions which were the kind of generic Indo-European beliefs associated with very early Greek culture, but I don't know if that carries over to the Stoics.
  • Dermot Griffin
    137


    I believe the article does mention Pyrrhonism as a part of cross cultural exchange. And I don’t know if the Stoics had any view on rebirth; The Pythagoreans taught this but I don’t see it at all in Stoicism. I also find The Questions of King Milinda to be a prime example of what Greco-Buddhism was.
  • baker
    5.7k
    For (Early) Buddhism, existence itself is burdensome, something to do away with.

    It seems to me that the Stoics had an overall positive view of life.
  • Wayfarer
    22.8k
    I think you're right about that. Stoicism is a way of coping with the vicissitudes of life, Buddhism sets its sights beyond. In that respect, although not at all in many other ways, it has more in common with Christianity.
  • schopenhauer1
    11k

    All of them are a tacit optimism if they endorse life’s continuation in the face of conditions of suffering, so pessimism is clearly the winner :razz:
  • Wayfarer
    22.8k
    Buddhism explicitly doesn't 'endorse life's continuation'. In the early Buddhist texts, aspirants were categorised according to the number of lives they were likely to have left, from 'stream-enterers' (i.e. have entered the stream of Nibbana but have some ways to go) Once-Returner, and Never-Returner (Arahant). Mahayana Buddhism extended that, by encompassing the idea that the Bodhisattva could voluntarily take birth for the benefit of sentient beings (Buddhism would likely categorise Jesus as a Bodhisattva on that basis) (source). But Bodhisattvas are said not to be reborn out of any inherent desire to continue existing, else they wouldn't be Bodhisattvas!
  • schopenhauer1
    11k
    But Bodhisattvas are said not to be reborn out of any inherent desire to continue existing, else they wouldn't be Bodhisattvas!Wayfarer

    Right. But the justification for non-monks to procreate nonetheless, because they hadn’t reached that level yet…they’ll just reach it on a future cycle..isn’t that how the argument goes? Strictly speaking, all adherents would immediately stop aspiration for starting a family.
  • Wayfarer
    22.8k
    I don't think they're nearly so sanguine about it. I think they believe that the odds of obtaining a favourable re-birth, left to their own devices, are vanishingly slight, and that you'll in all likelihood end up in a far worse condition or state, for an unthinkably long period of time. You want to talk about 'pessimism', they have lashings of it.
  • schopenhauer1
    11k

    Well, certainly having children can’t help the situation and would represent a cognitive dissonance in belief and practice because of convenience, preference or otherwise.
  • Wayfarer
    22.8k
    It is amazingly difficult for humans not to procreate. I was watching a documentary the other week about a Filipino village that makes its living picking over an enormous, malodorous pile of municipial waste and extracting a meagre amount of recyclibles to sell for a pittance. And many of them are women, with very young children helping. But they still continue to have children even in those dire circumstances. (Actually there's a strong correlation between electrification and lower birth-rates, interestingly. ) Anyway it's not an easy matter to say that people generally ought to refrain from procreating, even though it might be easy for an individual to make that decision. Humans are borne along by these drives, as Schopenhauer saw.
  • Ciceronianus
    3k


    I've always though Nietzsche's amor fati was merely derived from Stoicism. That may be why he disliked the Stoics.
  • baker
    5.7k
    But the justification for non-monks to procreate nonetheless, because they hadn’t reached that level yet…they’ll just reach it on a future cycle..isn’t that how the argument goes? Strictly speaking, all adherents would immediately stop aspiration for starting a family.schopenhauer1
    It also has to do with the way Buddhist religious tenets are formulated not as commandments (the way commandments exist in, for example, Christianity), but in a more tentative manner, as in "You'll follow the religious precepts once you see that they are worthwhile/true, until then, just do your best and don't worry much".

    Our Western notions about religion are largely tailored after Christianity, so when we look at other religions, we automatically see them through our Christianity-shaped lens. Yet this isn't necessarily how things work in other religions.

    all adherents would immediately
    At any given time, any particular adherent is at some particular point on their religious journey. It's not the case that every adherent has already "arrived" at the goal. Instead, there is a large a variety of religious expressions in terms of how strictly adherents keep to the religious tenets of their professed religion (if they in fact profess it at all themselves, or if their religious membership is assigned externally, by third persons).
  • Ø implies everything
    252
    That isn't to say applying stoicism in some areas of your life is bad, but Nietzsche always believed in maintaining the complimentary opposite of such a method, also, so that both drives could build a tension within a person to overcome and reconcile and bridge these differences.Vaskane

    Am I correct in describing this as an Hegelian thesis-antithesis synthesis happening within a single individual, and also happening partly in the emotional domain?
  • Wayfarer
    22.8k
    Our Western notions about religion are largely tailored after Christianity, so when we look at other religions, we automatically see them through our Christianity-shaped lens. Yet this isn't necessarily how things work in other religions.baker

    :100:
  • praxis
    6.5k
    Our Western notions about religion are largely tailored after Christianity, so when we look at other religions, we automatically see them through our Christianity-shaped lens. Yet this isn't necessarily how things work in other religions.baker

    Of course if people only know Christianity they’ll naturally view other religions through that lens because that’s the only model they know. I remember being in an introductory meeting at a zen center with a group of newbies years ago. One of the newcomers had a Christian background and asked about the ‘soul’ in Buddhism; asking what they called it or something. He didn’t seem to get it at all when someone tried to explain.

    Regarding moral codes specifically, all religions got’m and they all basically work the same way in terms of adherence. Indeed, they generally work the same way in non-religious contexts as well, with those high in the social hierarchy enjoying immunity and those of low status suffering persecution for even minor transgressions.
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