Hope is a powerful tool in overcoming despair.

Hopelessness and despair are quite similar in nature and are somewhat fatalistic in outlook. Hope is the cure for this philosophical predisposition as it allows one to view life as full of opportunities and that change for the good is only around the corner. As such having this optimistic and positive outlook in life that things are within one’s power to change one’s circumstances allows one to take realistic steps to do so. Which is much better than wallowing in static despair where one has no motivation to bring about positive change.

I don't know if you know Martha Nussbaum's 'Emotions as judgments of value and importance'. I can't link it here but one can find a downloadable version among the paywalled versions. She argues for emotion to be recognised as a source of rational self-direction, albeit that it suffuses one's body and one's feelings with a sense that sometimes seems beyond rationality.

She is looking at emotions with an object: the emotional core of her article is her own grief at her mother's death. Sometimes it can seem as if emotions like 'despair' or 'hope' - which I don't think are quite opposites - are more generalised and lack 'an object', but I'm inclined to think that some reflection, if one is capable of reflection when distraught, say, does bring a focus on objects. I despair at my (in)ability to cope with a particular adversity. I hope for a positive sign from a fellow human being of sympathy.

Over the course of my life, I have tended to shift, when oppressed by dark moods, to thinking in this, object-focused way. I don't know if this is about me, or ageing.

But I've still got an existentialist heart. I and some of my leftie friends have, for instance, become more pessimistic about politics lately and some people express a generalised despondency. In this context I, oddly enough, take a kind of comfort in an existential view. I commit myself to at least attempting rational scrutiny of despair when I feel it in my heart. I remind myself of previous encounters with this feeling. This does lead to making the sense of despair 'about' a, or b, or x, or y. And that in turn leads to working out how to be quasi-Stoic about the specifics involved. I don't know if this is 'right', but it's certainly helpful to me.

I am inclined to think that 'hope' is extremely important, as opposed to despair. Some may see hope as unhelpful in 'Pandora's Box'. However, this may be questionable. If all hope is gone, what is left? Are those who suggest that hope is unimportant querying mere philosophy ideals, as opposed to the raw aspects of life?

Generally, despair may be a 'black hole'. The practical and psychological realities, and going beyond, may be complex. Nevertheless, to deny the 'tool' of hope may be nothing less than becoming engulfed by the power and idea of despair.

Thank you for your reply and I have not come across the ideas of Martha Nussbeim. You mention pessimism, and this may be important in juxtaposition with optimism. This may be a fine line, and involve wishing for the best but being prepared for the worst. This may be difficult to achieve, and could even result in the opposite, of preparation for the best, but fearing the worst, and how this may become manifest. Fear may in itself have such a strong self-fulfilling prophecy. Also, beyond the issues of religious ideas, there is the question of whether fear or faith are equal or, which is stronger in the development of human will and willpower?

You also mention the Stoics, and such a philosophy of self understanding and, discipline may be extremely important. In particular, there may be significant parallels between the ideas of Stoicism and cognitive behaviour therapy.

I was replying to your post, but think that I pressed in the wrong place, so the previous post was my reply to you.

Despair can be a psychological temperament albeit not a very useful one. Self-empowerment would be a more beneficial trait to have allowing for one’s personal growth.

Despair really gets you nowhere, to have hope for better by setting oneself goals and aims such as being the best version of oneself is to truly add meaning to one’s life and making it richer in experience.

As such I believe that the differences between an optimist and a despairing pessimist is one of attitude and mindset.

I wonder to what extent despair is a temperament or a philosophical perspective? Also, to what extent is it a chosen viewpoint or one arrived at through outer experience of suffering?

I am certainly not an advocate of the philosophy of despair but wonder how such a state stands in adversity. There is so much suffering and conflict in the world, through poverty, war and conflict, as well as interpersonal issues. So, I wonder about pessimism and optimism in this respect. It may be about states of mind, including moods, but, may also involve cognitive framing of how practical life works.

So, I am asking how do you see the idea of despair, and hope, as philosophical concepts in making sense of the navigation of life possibilities? How may ideas of despair be juggled effectively, to go beyond the deadend of pessimism and thinking? To what extent is nihilism a 'realistic' philosophy or a flawed one? — Jack Cummins

I don't believe nihilism has a necessary connection to despair. With nihilism one can be resolute and cheerful, even if one holds that there's an inherent meaninglessness or lack of objective value in life, existence, and reality. Nihilism would seem to me to be a bulwark against despair in many instances.

I think despair may be fair enough in certain circumstances, where one literally has no hope and no way out.

But generally, if you are feeling despair, you have perhaps bypassed a philosophical understanding of your circumstances and are succumbing to a particular pessimistic interpretation.

I wonder to what extent despair is a temperament or a philosophical perspective? Also, to what extent is it a chosen viewpoint or one arrived at through outer experience of suffering? — Jack Cummins

It can be philosophical perspective or just a perspective of life too. Whether the viewpoint is selected from various other viewpoints is the personal choice of the individual because one can go through suffering and not succumb to despair.

The relationship between nihilism and despair is complex, especially as it may be possible to be a 'happy nihilist'. Pleasure may be possible in the midst of the most bleak views of life.

Nevertheless, I wonder to what extent is the opposite true. If one is living in the harshest of conditions, including poverty and war, how does a philosophy of optimism stand? Are philosophies which encourage 'hope' and 'positivity' amidst harsh outer circumstances, mere ideologies?

I am not sure that any of this is simple, especially as the juxtaposition between outer and inner suffering is constructed subjectively. Despair, and hope, are constructed in subjective and intersubjective ways; this may mean that the spectrum between hope and despair is a continuum. The various points may arise in subjective aspects of the construction of the largest picture, and, attitudes of despair and pessimism may be developed in cultural contexts, as well as in the vast array of subjective psychological states of mind.

Pleasure may be possible in the midst of the most bleak views of life. — Jack Cummins

Naturally. Most nihilists I’ve known have been optimistic. I personally don’t see a connection between inherent meaninglessness and despair. I see meaninglessness as opportunity.

Are philosophies which encourage 'hope' and 'positivity' amidst harsh outer circumstances, mere ideologies? — Jack Cummins

Ask a Stoic. :wink:

Despair, and hope, are constructed in subjective and intersubjective ways; this may mean that the spectrum between hope and despair is a continuum. — Jack Cummins

I suspect that some people have a gift for suffering and despair and are attracted to this as a demonstration of authenticity and superior character.

I am unsure to what extent despair is a state of mind, relating to attitude and mood, or a philosophical point of view or perspective. It is that question that which has led me to ask the thread question. In particular, I feel despairing about the state of the world. In thinking about this, I am unsure to what extent this is based on my own life circumstances and what I see on a larger scale. Here, it may be a complex clouding in the perspective of suffering. It is in such respects that I ask about despair: to what extent is it an emotional framework or a rational evaluation of suffering in life?

The relationship between nihilism and optimism may vary so much, and may depend on material conditions. If may be so much easier to endure ideas of negativity in physical comfort and wealth than in conditions of poverty, austerity and physical suffering.

The relationship between the inner, psychological aspects of happiness and unhappiness and ideas of despair and nihilism may involve many variables. There is the question as to whether states of mind and intention have a subconscious role in the nature of manifest experience. So, to what extent do pessimism and optimism have a determining role in the conjuring of our own life experiences and circumstances? Alternatively, to what extent do our experiences and circumstances determine our philosophical outlooks?

Martha Nussbaum is a highly-rated academic philosopher. I think her work is a good route in to thinking about emotion and philosophy.

I ask about despair: to what extent is it an emotional framework or a rational evaluation of suffering in life? — Jack Cummins

The Nussbaum approach is based on a broad view that these are not alternatives. Emotion on this view is how a thinking creature evaluates situations. Education about emotion, including self-education, is an essential element in how we learn to live well. There seems to me to be a connection between how I sometimes feel despair at the state of the world, and my attendance at demos, my membership of the green Party and my attempts to be kind to others (and, negatively, with how I sometimes have to bury my head in the sand and look for booze). I like Aristotle's view of ethics in relation to these problems: virtue involves recognising our emotions and working out how to express and channel them, which will in turn involve both emotional and rational attention. Self-appraisal of emotions contributes substantially to well-being.

If may be so much easier to endure ideas of negativity in physical comfort and wealth than in conditions of poverty, austerity and physical suffering. — Jack Cummins

That's one of those common sense observations, isn't it? Not sure how accurate it is. Rich people feel a sense of hopelessness and also commit suicide, so there's that.

So, to what extent do pessimism and optimism have a determining role in the conjuring of our own life experiences and circumstances? — Jack Cummins

Some, but one wouldn't want to overstate this. The person who wallows in 'it's all hopeless' is unlikely to overcome their challenges, whether those be great or small. One's attitude and the inferences one makes will have impact upon how one lives. That is obvious. But one can't cure cancer or end war just by positive thinking. Getting out of bed, making plans and taking action is foundational to change or transformation.

Alternatively, to what extent do our experiences and circumstances determine our philosophical outlooks? — Jack Cummins

We are our experiences and circumstances, but how far this extends and what else there is (genes, personality) is an open question.

I will try to look into Nussbaum' s philosophy as I had not come across it. The idea of emotions based upon a thinking creature's evaluation does seem important, as the phenomenology of emotions, including despair.

One aspect which I see as an area of distinction here is the difference between despair about one's own life situation and that of other people or lifeforms. In its basic clinical aspects of depression, the thwarting of one's own needs, especially the basic physiological ones and social ones may be intrinsic. On another level, of self actualisation, higher needs may come into play. So, it may be that a person looks out beyond the immediate sphere and sees the needs of others and, these may crossover with altruistic concerns.

Here, the basic functions of human life may come into play in perspectives of pessimism and optimism. In particular, there is the quandary of one's own future and the survival of the human race and planet. So, feelings of despair may occur about one's own life or further. I wonder about this interplay and to what extent can egoism be a starting point for going beyond one's personal concerns. In other words, to what extent is the idea and emotions of despair different when focused upon personal or artistic concerns or wider ones about how humanity and the planet?

The idea of despair has been developed further within existentialism, especially by Camus, — Jack Cummins

What is the arguments for Camus' idea of despair in his existentialism? i.e. why does he think it is the case?

In other words, to what extent is the idea and emotions of despair different when focused upon personal or artistic concerns or wider ones about how humanity and the planet? — Jack Cummins

It seems like you are asking for an agreement regarding categories before asking about different ideas. For example:

Kierkegaard was talking about a deeply personal experience. So was Lacan when talking about the conditions of early development. I don't have a map that locates the difference between the two. They are, nonetheless, very different.

Will efforts to explain that gap get me closer to what is happening?

I wonder to what extent despair is a temperament or a philosophical perspective? Also, to what extent is it a chosen viewpoint or one arrived at through outer experience of suffering? — Jack Cummins

So, I am asking how do you see the idea of despair, and hope, as philosophical concepts in making sense of the navigation of life possibilities? How may ideas of despair be juggled effectively, to go beyond the deadend of pessimism and thinking? To what extent is nihilism a 'realistic' philosophy or a flawed one? — Jack Cummins

Despair is alive and well in philosophy.

I found out about Lev Shestov. This is his take on despair:

People who read much must always keep it in mind that life is one thing, literature another. Not that authors invariably lie. I declare that there are writers who rarely and most reluctantly lie. But one must know how to read, and that isn't easy. Out of a hundred bookreaders ninety-nine have no idea what they are reading about. It is a common belief, for example, that any writer who sings of suffering must be ready at all times to open his arms to the weary and heavy-laden.

This is what his readers feel when they read his books. Then when they approach him with their woes, and find that he runs away without looking back at them, they are filled with indignation and talk of the discrepancy between word and deed. Whereas the fact is, the singer has more than enough woes of his own, and he sings them because he can't get rid of them. L’uccello canta nella gabbia, non di gioia ma di rabbia, says the Italian proverb: "The bird sings in the cage, not from joy but from rage." It is impossible to love sufferers, particularly hopeless sufferers, and whoever says otherwise is a deliberate liar. "Come unto Me all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

But you remember what the Jews said about Him: "He speaks as one having authority!" And if Jesus had been unable, or had not possessed the right, to answer this skeptical taunt, He would have had to renounce His words. We common mortals have neither divine powers nor divine rights, we can only love our neighbours whilst they still have hope, and any pretence of going beyond this is empty swagger. Ask him who sings of suffering for nothing but his songs. Rather think of alleviating his burden than of requiring alleviation from him. Surely not—for ever should we ask any poet to sob and look upon tears. I will end with another Italian saying: Non è un si triste cane che non meni la coda... "No dog so wretched that doesn't wag his tail sometimes.”
― Lev Shestov, All Things Are Possible and Penultimates Words and Other Essays

I do not have a better passage to provide here as I don't own a book he'd written.

This quote is attributed to Publilius Syrus:

The pain of the mind is worse than the pain of the body.

My tip is, practice physical fitness of some kind. It can be anything, but it has to make you sweat and be physically taxing. Does wonders for the morale. I discovered running when in my late 20’s - before then had been thoroughly unfit. It took persistence, but I learned to do very long runs, 8-10km, and kept it up for years. The great thing about a hard run is the feeling you get after you shower. Your whole body feels utterly new, like it’s been taken apart and re-assembled, in a good way. Total euphoria, but in a good way, unlike the high you get from drink or drugs. It totally evens out your emotions also. I can’t run anymore, being in my 70’s, although I still work out at the gym - orbital trainers are great. But it’s a sure fire antidote to despair and despondency.

How may ideas of despair be juggled effectively, to go beyond the deadend of pessimism and thinking — Jack Cummins

:up: :up:

So, I am asking how do you see the idea of despair, and hope, as philosophical concepts in making sense of the navigation of life possibilities? — Jack Cummins

"You can't lose what you ain't never had" goes an old blues. In other words, without indulging yourself in hope, you won't ever have any hope to lose – no despair. "Amor fati", says Freddy Z and "Ja-sagen zum Leben" despite life's sorrows and in order to fully savor – eternalize – life's joys. IME, courage is first, above all other life-stances: the courage to live by only what we know, the courage to love despite as well as because of and the courage to thrive from whatever happens: sorrow, boredom or joy. :fire:

Via creative expression, an epitome of courage:

Tragicomedians, absurdists & blues people teach much about how to spite despair ... :death: :flower:

Courage. That is the enabling virtue. All the other virtues are empty without courage. — Cornel West, at The New School, NYC 2023

You may have a point about physical exercise and going outside is probably important too. I know that my bloods showed severe vitamin D deficiency a couple of times, including in a heatwave. As someone who is into contemplating life I am inclined to spend too much time indoors, ruminating. There is a danger of going into black holes in the process.

Thinking of your ideas on mind created reality, I do wonder about the role of mind in leading to stated of despair. It may be that each of us creates one's own heavens and hells through nursing our own inner demons. I wonder about the role of the subconscious mind in self sabotage and in the nature of experiences in the physical world. In other words, do the dramas in life arise on account of subconscious aspects of will. For example, when my bed was being attacked by bed bugs I wondered if they symbolised my inner demons. However, I don't wish to end up sounding like Harry Potter.

I also do wonder about the role of pain and suffering in life and how even despair may be transformational. It may lead to deeper searching. The issue may be about being broken by despair, or a means of enlightenment. The difference may be a fine line and may even shift between the two.

It is true 'that you cannot lose what you never had' and it is possible that some aspects of life are not appreciated until you lose them. For example, when I had a job I used to moan about getting up early in the morning. Now, that I can't seem to get any job and am struggling with rent arrears I realise what I have lost.

Loss can be such a major source of despair, from broken romances to loss of others through death. The whole process of bereavement is important and psychoanalytic thinkers speak of an inability to grieve as a source of later problems.

The arts in general thrive on people living with despair. One book which I found useful was 'The Outsider', by Colin Wilson. He looks at suffering and creativity through the writings of the existentialists and others, including Van Gogh. He quotes what are believed to be Van Gogh's last words, 'The misery will never end.

The distinction between the highs and the lows is so strong in music, including Jim Morrison and others too. The search for the numinousity of joy often results in the opposite state. Then; there is the quest to escape from the prisons of despair.

Thinking of your ideas on mind created reality, I do wonder about the role of mind in leading to stated of despair. It may be that each of us creates one's own heavens and hells through nursing our own inner demons. I wonder about the role of the subconscious mind in self sabotage and in the nature of experiences in the physical world. In other words, do the dramas in life arise on account of subconscious aspects of will. — Jack Cummins

Well, of course that is true, but it's a surprisingly rare insight. I suppose Freud is an obvious source for this kind of insight in modern culture, but I've never liked his materialism and 'scientism'. Jung is a much more profound thinker in that respect, although he's barely mentioned at University.

Anyway, I'm getting off track. In a day-to-day sense, it is of course true that we get caught up in our inner stories and streams of consciousness and they profoundly shape our reality. In that sense, they are our reality, although, of course, reality is also that which rudely interrupts our inner dialogue, or even shatters it. But nevertheless, it's important to get insight into those voices, and most of all to learn to see they're just voices, just feelings, often caused by memories. That's the aim of mindfulness practice.

The great thing about a hard run is the feeling you get after you shower. Your whole body feels utterly new, like it’s been taken apart and re-assembled, in a good way. — Wayfarer

This made me contemplate running for the first time in my life. I ran to catch a bus once or twice in the 1980's... Too late for me now, but what a wonderful description.

Depends heavily on the reason why you're interested in the idea. Usually my interest in such stuff is spurred on by feeling despair, and usually thinking is the last thing that helps with the feeling of despair. In that case the best philosophical treatment of despair is to put down philosophy because rumination will only make it worse.

But as a person with clinical depression I've found Camus' writings soothing. Not many people like to think through suicide, and usually it's an irrational affair so it's a refreshing essay to me: it took what I've felt seriously unlike anyone else did, and that was therapeutic. So in that case there was a sense in which it was nice to feel a connection to at least something else that let me know that I'm not alone.

Finding that balance between ruminating too much but simultaneously bringing some sense to these feelings so that people don't feel alone is hard to do, but rewarding to me.

So -- if you're in a place where you're not ruminating, and able to bring light to those feelings for others I think it's a good thing, but it's worth noting the danger of rumination since the emotion can lead to a kind of reinforcing circle of despair.

I wonder if despair is a result of decline because when everything is going so well it may not occur to one to feel despair, The nature of despair may come in the aftermath of high expectations and goals and being disappointed. It is hard to know whether the initial hope was the problem in the first instance. In that respect, it is hard to know if false hope was the problem or the sense of being defeated leading to the feeling and thoughts of being at a deadend.

I believe that Jung once said something to the effect of 'I live in my deepest hell and from that, I can fall no further'. Here, Jung may have been speaking of embracing despair rather than suppressing or repressing it. In that way, living with despair and even the harshest memories or inner'voices' may be about embracing the darkness.

Even though I see despair in itself as negative I am inclined to wonder if it part of the journeying to higher states of consciousness. Of course, it may not be simple, but it may be that the learning curve, including experiences of being a 'failure', may lead to greater wisdom and understanding, if navigated well, as in the process of individuation.

I get the feeling that all of these thinkers did not take much time to avoid being depressed, which can be done.

I am unsure I can take seriously a set of thinkers who are preoccupied with exploring the depths of their negative emotions. I think there is definitely something to the 'dark night of the soul' concept, and that this can, at least post-hoc, make some rather dismal experiences a little more light-ful or at least practically helpful (in highsight). But the feelings i take to be despair and hopelessness are things that you do to yourself, not immediate responses to events in your life. In that sense, I just think they're pointless mental wanking really.

I do not think that dwelling on the nature of these things can lead anywhere but further into them - which seems a pretty stupid thing to strive for, imo.