According to 'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine', individuals in various environments require distinct treatments. The practice of using 'Poison' to treat patients indeed originated from the West.

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'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine' chapter 12, Methods of Treatment

Yellow Emperor asked, "In the practice of medicine, why is it that treating the same illness in different individuals results in various, yet all effective, treatments?"

Qibo responded, "It is influenced by the geographical features."

Therefore, in the eastern regions, where heaven and earth originated, known for fish and salt, situated by the sea and water, the people consume fish and favor salty flavors. They are content in their environment, delighting in their food. Fish consumption induces internal heat, and salt promotes blood circulation. As a result, the people in this region have dark skin and loose texture, prone to diseases such as abscesses. The appropriate treatment is stone needling. Hence, the method of treating diseases with stone needles also comes from the east.

In the western regions, the land of gold and jade, characterized by sand and stones, is a place where heaven and earth collect and attract. The people reside on hills, exposed to winds, and the soil and water are robust. They do not wear much clothing, opting for brown mats instead. Their diet is rich, leading to a plump and fatty physique that is resistant to external evils. Diseases in this region typically manifest internally, and the suitable treatment involves poisonous medicines. Thus, the method of treating diseases with poisonous medicines also comes from the west.

In the northern regions, enclosed by heaven and earth, with elevated terrain and cold, freezing winds, people prefer living in open areas and consume dairy. Cold storage results in bloating diseases, and the appropriate treatment is moxibustion. Thus, the method of treating diseases with moxibustion also comes from the north.

In the southern regions, where nature nurtures everything, and yang energy is vigorous, the land is low with weak soil. Mist and dew frequently gather in this area. The people enjoy sour foods and fermented products, resulting in a dense and reddish skin texture. Diseases in this region often involve spasms and numbness, and the suitable treatment involves fine needle acupuncture. Hence, the method of treating diseases with nine needles also comes from the south.

In the central region, with flat terrain and abundant moisture, where heaven and earth give rise to countless beings, people have a diverse diet without much physical exertion. Therefore, diseases in this region often manifest as weakness, reversal, cold, and heat. The appropriate treatment involves methods of guidance, pressure, and foot manipulation. Thus, the method of treating diseases with guidance, pressure, and foot manipulation also originates from the central region.

Therefore, the wise healer combines various methods of treatment, tailoring each to its suitability. The diverse methods of treatment all lead to recovery because understanding the condition of the illness is the key to effective treatment.

For thousands of years, people in Korea, China, Japan, Vietnam, and Taiwan have been utilizing these acupuncture points to treat various ailments, and this practice continues to thrive today. The only way to refute its efficacy is to examine your body and confirm the absence of inherent acupuncture points. — YiRu Li

This may explain quite a lot. For some reason, you are rejecting all Western medical notions, by the sound of it. I, as noted, have no problem being a Western Chauvinist about medicine. I simply reject that what you've said here is sensible. There is no reliable or effective way for me to assess that particular claim on myself. I imagine it is this technique, coupled with culture-wide pareidolia that has resulted in a total lack of sufficient verification of the practice. As noted elsewhere, Acupuncture doesn't work for almost anything other than mild pain (and, given its prevalence in media, placebo).

Acupuncture is effective — YiRu Li

It is not.

individuals in various environments require distinct treatments. The practice of using 'Poison' to treat patients indeed originated from the West. — YiRu Li

This is nonsensical. Obviously, every instance of an illness is unique - but illnesses themselves respond to certain treatment fairly universally. Pretending that each and every instance is somehow metaphysically distinct in such a way that medicine and biomechanics vary is... left wanting, lets say.

Err, the concept of using drugs to treat illnesses is what your 'herbs' are doing, with far higher efficacy and targeting. I have no idea why you've scare quoted 'Poison', particualrly in a place it makes no sense. If you have an axe to grind against Western medicine, this wont go all that well i don't think.

Therefore, the wise healer combines various methods of treatment, tailoring each to its suitability. The diverse methods of treatment all lead to recovery because understanding the condition of the illness is the key to effective treatment. — YiRu Li

Which is not found in any of the pseudo-spiritual quotes you've put forward. The technique you've just described is Western diagnosis.

I do apologise, But i am beginning to lose respect for your position on this.

Acupuncture doesn't work for almost anything other than mild pain (and, given its prevalence in media, placebo). — AmadeusD

I tried acupuncture 3 times via well regarded practitioners here (back pain). Useless. I know anecdote isn’t proof but no one I know who has tried it for anything serious finds it does not work.

For some reason, you are rejecting all Western medical notions, by the sound of it. — AmadeusD

Correct! The way I communicate in Chinese medicine may sound completely different from Western medical theory. In Taiwan, we integrate both Western and Chinese medicine. Every doctor is trained in both systems.

However, when we opt for Chinese medicine, Chinese medicine doctors emphasize the importance of thinking and communicating strictly within the framework of Chinese medicine theory for optimal utilization. To make the most of Chinese medicine, we can't approach it with a Western mindset, as the two theories are fundamentally different. This is why Taiwanese individuals often consult prophet books for guidance when using Chinese medicine.

I tried acupuncture 3 times via well regarded practitioners here (back pain). Useless. — Tom Storm

I'm sorry to hear about your pain. Here are some examples that might be helpful.

It's essential to identify the origin of the pain to determine whether acupuncture, herbs, Qigong, philosophy or a combination of everything would be the most effective approach.

1. **Stress:**
I experienced intense belly pain after a fall, and despite assurance from a Western doctor that I was fine, muscle relief medication didn't work. Turning to acupuncture, my pain vanished within the first few minutes.

2. **Inflammation:**
Dealing with severe joint pain due to long-term COVID, my doctor diagnosed it as inflammation. I incorporated mung beans, a potent anti-inflammatory food in Chinese medicine. After just one day of using mung beans, my pain significantly improved. Since my body responds well to mung beans, I include them in my daily diet, and the joint pain is completely gone.

3. **Stress:**
A friend facing financial stress and persistent back pain, likely aggravated by poor posture, considered suicide multiple times. Weekly acupuncture sessions significantly alleviated both his persistent suicidal thoughts and back pain.

4. **Inflammation:**
As his back pain worsened due to COVID, he tried mung beans, resulting in considerable improvement.

However, mung beans might be too intense for those with a cold body constitution. Turmeric could be a suitable alternative for individuals experiencing cold hands and feet.

In Taiwan, individuals often seek advice from both Western and Chinese doctors, tailoring their approach to each disease. Doctors in Taiwan emphasize the importance of considering both Western and Chinese medicine perspectives for comprehensive healthcare.

Correct! — YiRu Li

Then I think you are taking a misguided, and ultimately dangerous position. Given that you live in Seattle (iirc) that is probably not a great position to be in. I would recommend understanding 'medicine' proper. It is not particular to a system - it is a set of aims, for which a system must be adequate. Western medicine at least goes a long way toward.. TCM gets barely off the starting block imo.

However, when we opt for Chinese medicine, Chinese doctors emphasize the importance of thinking and communicating strictly within the framework of Chinese medicine theory for optimal utilization. — YiRu Li

Can you not see that this is a serious, empirically verifiable, problem? This is the reason TCM has never been integrated. It doesn't work, and this attitude means that any aspects which are helpful in some way (all systems have these, basically) cannot be utilised outside the context of an ineffective, superstitious and scientifically semi-literate system.

I have no problem calling this nonsense.

as the two theories are fundamentally different — YiRu Li

Yes: One is based in reality; one is based in fancy (more or less) as has been illustrated by every post you have made around the topic.

It's essential to identify the origin of the pain to determine whether acupuncture, herbs, Qigong, philosophy or a combination of everything would be the most effective approach. — YiRu Li

Can you please outline whether you are actually serious in your approach throughout these exchanges?

It seems you are utterly incapable of considering anything but an ideological view point unsupported by any evidence. Your only citations are shoddy youtubers, spiritual texts, and anecdotes.

I'm sorry to hear about your pain. Here are some examples that might be helpful. — YiRu Li

I fixed the problem with some regular special exercises for back problems. No pain for several years.

I never take advice from an internet forum. Thanks anyway.

regular exercise for back problems. — Tom Storm

Glad you are healed!
Yes, exercise is always one of the solutions for pain.

Unless the solution is something other than exercise..

Daoying is Qigong, exercise.

In the central land, the terrain is flat and humid, and the products are rich. Therefore, people have many kinds of food and live a relatively comfortable life. The diseases that occur here are mostly flaccidity, convulsions, cold and heat, etc. The treatment of these diseases should be guided by Daoying, Press method. Therefore, the governance method of Daoying, Press was promoted from the central region.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I've said.

Is it possible there are language barrier issues here? I would really hate to devolve into irritation if the fact is we're not actually getting each other clearly.

No...I was just showing that in some situations patients will need exercise instead of acupuncture.

These are the situations for acupuncture:

In the eastern regions, where heaven and earth originated, known for fish and salt, situated by the sea and water, the people consume fish and favor salty flavors. They are content in their environment, delighting in their food. Fish consumption induces internal heat, and salt promotes blood circulation. As a result, the people in this region have dark skin and loose texture, prone to diseases such as abscesses. The appropriate treatment is stone needling. Hence, the method of treating diseases with stone needles also comes from the east.

In the southern regions, where nature nurtures everything, and yang energy is vigorous, the land is low with weak soil. Mist and dew frequently gather in this area. The people enjoy sour foods and fermented products, resulting in a dense and reddish skin texture. Diseases in this region often involve spasms and numbness, and the suitable treatment involves fine needle acupuncture. Hence, the method of treating diseases with nine needles also comes from the south.

I'm really sorry - this is becoming farcical. You are not responding to any objections put to you, and you refuse to move on from citing superstitious religious texts.

Those two passages are absolute bollocks. They betray an extremely elementary understanding of medicine, geography and logic. Leaps on leaps on leaps.

There is something to the idea that if you live right near the ocean, you will affected by it. It does not follow that the craziness in those passages results.

I apologize for any confusion. It's more effective to validate it with a real case.
That's why Taiwanese turn to doctors' teachings on YouTube for a better understanding.

For instance, my friend is currently experiencing numbness, as mentioned in the previous paragraph about people in the south. He has been achieving excellent results from acupuncture.

There's no confusion here my friend. Anecdote just simply isn't very good evidence for much, unless it aligns with the empirical data.
The empirical data says acupuncture is a placebo, potentially releasing some muscle tension incidentally. Tom, and many others have anecdotes to this effect (or less!). So, using your logic, acupuncture is, in fact, a placebo-based practice.

If doctors in Taiwan are going to Youtube charlatans for advice on how to treat patients, I would recommend never going to one. That is bizarre and unethical.

It's straightforward to find scientific research supporting acupuncture's efficacy in treating every specific diseases, such as this article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3833581/.

However, I believe that reading scientific reports is not the most efficient way to choose medical treatment. I prefer comprehensive solutions explained by doctors to quickly make decisions based on my specific conditions. In Taiwan, TV or YouTube shows typically invite at least 2 Western medicine and 2 Chinese medicine doctors to explain various treatment approaches for a particular disease within a 30-minute segment. These shows often present around 10 different cases, providing people with abundant information to choose the best solution according to their situation.

In my opinion, when people find time to complain that a medical method is not effective, it often indicates that the patient didn't have enough information when making the initial decision. It's crucial for individuals to be aware of whether acupuncture is suitable for them before undergoing the treatment, rather than discovering its appropriateness afterward.

My friends and I have successfully used acupuncture because we knew it was suitable for our specific situations before choosing this treatment option. We don't rely on acupuncture for every ailment; instead, we opt for it only when we know it's a suitable solution.

'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine' is a book dating back 2,000 years. Even during that time, people had at least six different medical options to choose from whenever they fell ill (e.g., stone needling, poisonous medicines, needles, moxibustion, Qigong, massage, philosophy). It prompts the question: After 2,000 years, is Western medicine the only choice available to people? Have human beings witnessed a reduction in medical choices and less knowledge to know how to choose from various medical treatments, over this time span?

You're repeating the same untrue claims you've repeated the entire time.

Suffice to say I think your position is devoid of anything resembling evidence or support (and I've been through the lit. on acupuncture - it has also been explicated in this thread to your position on that is false).

Perhaps we should stop here. I'm beginning to feel the need to use words like 'stupid' and 'stubborn' and 'inept' and 'uneducated' and 'ideologically posessed'.

I don't want to be responding to you negatively, but you have painted yourself into a corner that requires it.

Yes, forget about Chinese medicine.
I appreciate your excellent question, which allows me to gain a deeper understanding of 'The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine'.

Chinese medicine revolves around self-healing.
It's akin to Kung-Fu, requiring individuals to learn and practice themselves to unlock their body, mind, and spirit potential.
No one else or magical technology can help you discover your inherent potential and the power within nature.
Zero knowledge of Chinese medicine equals zero medical effect from Chinese medicine.

:chin: I don't quite understand that Chinese medicine tries to teach you how to self-heal, but you want to use 'science' to reject it? From my perspective, the understanding of 'science' enhances the explanation of Chinese medicine. This is why doctors in Taiwan undergo training in both Western and Chinese medicine.

Discussing the philosophy of equality might be a more engaging topic.

I shall be ducking out now. I really appreciate your commitment and exchanging with me in great spirits :)

I've had a cousin who saw acupuncture in a favorable, presumably productive light. — Outlander

The proper justification for a scientific claim is that the methodology used is consistent with the scientific method. — Hanover

Suffice to say I think your position is devoid of anything resembling evidence or support (and I've been through the lit. on acupuncture - it has also been explicated in this thread to your position on that is false). — AmadeusD

I know anecdote isn’t proof but no one I know who has tried it for anything serious finds it does not work. — Tom Storm

:up:


You are absolutely correct in highlighting that the evidence provided by a few individuals regarding acupuncture may not be sufficient to prove its effectiveness.

According to Chinese medicine theory, acupuncture centers around the concept of Self-Healing. Therefore, the immediate effectiveness of acupuncture largely depends on the individual's inherent self-healing ability. Many doctors advocate the practice of Qigong and philosophy of equality, which can significantly enhance the healing effects of acupuncture on patients.

https://www.holdenqigong.com/qi-gong-as-an-effective-complement-to-acupuncture/
[ Qi Gong is especially important for those receiving acupuncture treatment since acupuncture relies on the body’s existing resources of qi. Through Qi Gong, practitioners who are also patients can cultivate their own inner resources, providing more qi for an acupuncturist to work with to remove blockages and increase the flow of qi throughout the body. ]

Alternatively, consistent use of acupuncture over time may lead to increasing effectiveness. I witnessed this firsthand with a friend who experienced continuous improvement after a year of weekly acupuncture sessions.

In my experience, I've observed that my chronic western medicine works more effectively when I engage in regular exercise, maintain a proper diet, ensure emotional well-being, and am younger. This principle can also be applied to acupuncture.

I believe a proper scientific experiment on acupuncture should focus on comparing the individual patient's progress over time, assessing any improvement in their self-healing ability. After all, self-healing ability is a highly personal aspect. It's meaningless to compare my self-healing effect with others.

Every time I see this thread I want to make a joke about FOIL and PEMDAS being the correct way to solve inequalities.

I could no longer resist.

I could no longer resist. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Yes! Give in to the nerd side.

Every time I see this thread I want to make a joke about FOIL and PEMDAS being the correct way to solve inequalities. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Maybe it's not merely a joke but a truth.
Viewing things from different perspectives may help cultivate our sense of equality.

Doctors describe how the mindset of inequality affects our bodily systems:

When an event occurs, the body receives input.
The brain stores this input in the Hippocampus for long-term memory while simultaneously constructing default, standard, or habitual thinking patterns.
The Hippocampus functions like a cache in a computer, guiding our responses to similar events based on past experiences.
Upon encountering a repeated event, if it deviates from the standard stored in the Hippocampus, the Amygdala is triggered to generate emotions in response.
The Amygdala activates the Thalamus system, Hypothalamus, and Pituitary Gland, subsequently affecting the Endocrine and Autonomic systems through the Vagus Nerve, resulting in, for example, the release of Cortisol.

The standard established in the Hippocampus serves as the initial benchmark that dictates the series of bodily responses to an event.
The Hippocampus tends to establish standards that perceive events as falling below expectations.
This tendency is termed "Negativity Bias": wherein human nature tends to focus on the negative aspects of events.

According to statistics, the distress of losing $2,000 is five times stronger on average than the joy of earning the same amount.
This amplification of negative thinking serves to avoid danger and ensure better survival. However, the downside is that it can trigger negative emotions and Somatoform Disorders.

Can we remove this "Negativity Bias" and perceive everything as equal?
In Buddhism, this inclination is referred to as "Attachment," "Self," or "Ego."
Perhaps that's why Zhuang Zi and the I Ching are always studied alongside Chinese medicine.
Zhuang Zi teaches how to perceive everything as equal.
The I Ching teaches how to predict and explain ways to avoid negative outcomes and move towards goodness.
Thus, to overcome the "Negativity Bias."

I believe every effort we make to perceive things diversely and as equal can help train our Hippocampus.
This includes employing different approaches to mathematical problem-solving.