Ummm.... just who has crossed the Rubicon? Or have both crossed the Rubicon? :shade:But I think the rubicon has been crossed when it comes to terrorist action. — Punshhh
(Democracy Now! Jan 31st 2024) This event was significant because thousands of people took part in it in West Jerusalem. They gathered in a big hall. I could say half of the participants were youth or college students. And you had mostly religious right-wing settlers.
There at the entrance, you had a big map, a huge map, showing the different settlements they plan to establish in the Gaza Strip, some of them literally on top of Palestinian villages and towns that exist and, of course, unfortunately, were destroyed by the Israeli aggression in the recent months.
Inside the hall, we had speeches of, as you said, ministers, parliament members. Four out of five of the — representatives of four out of five of the parties that are in the coalition of Netanyahu’s government were there, 11 ministers and 15 parliament members, so a big support from the government, and also settlers’ leaders and activists.
For me, personally, the most shocking thing was not only the plan to establish the settlements, but the fact that people there were dancing and singing, being happy and joyful. And this is important to understand that in the Israeli public atmosphere, this is something you barely see since the attack of 7 of October. You don’t see public events where people are joyful, not because, you know, most of the Israeli public ignore the horrific reality in Gaza, but because of the war, because of the attack of 7th of October, because Israeli soldiers are being killed every day in the war. You don’t see many of those events. And it shocked even mainstream Israelis to see ministers and people who take those decisions regarding the war dancing, was very shocking for many people. And I think this is because while the vast or big parts of the Israeli public is still in shock, the settler movement see this war as an opportunity to expand their plans to settle in Gaza.
One could think that after ministers and the prime minister himself were quoted in the South African appeal to the court — this were the evidence, actually, what the Israeli politician, the genocidal discourse they were promoting in the beginning of the war — one could think they will be a bit more careful. But the opposite. This was not — it’s important to mention this was not only a conference talking about settling in Gaza. It was very clear, and most of the speakers talked about what they call is the encouraging immigration or forcing people from Gaza. So it’s very clear that the settlement movement is on the account of the residents of Gaza.
Daniella Weiss, one of the settlers’ leader who was leading the conference, when we asked her, “What would happen to the Palestinians if your plans come true?” she said, “They would leave. They would have to leave. We don’t give them food. We don’t give them water.” She was talking about the siege. And she said, “They would leave. They would have to spread around the world.” Also, Minister Ben-Gvir, who was a bit more careful in his language, said, “We have to encourage immigration from Gaza.” So this was a consensus in the conference.
Ummm.... just who has crossed the Rubicon? Or have both crossed the Rubicon? :shade:
It's telling how Israel has changed.This has been my point for nearly a decade because of what Likud stands for and Herut before that. This is just accelerating due to the 7 October attack and now obvious but it's been the game plan for them for decades now. — Benkei
Yes. I would add that this is the result when both sides, actually, approach the issue really from a religious position with religious determination. For Hamas the Palestinians killed are martyrs, for the religious right in Israel this war is an opportunity, which you can celebrate by dancing.I mean Israel has now crossed the Rubicon. In the future even if they are able to have good relations with their neighbours, they will always be vulnerable to terrorist attacks. Because their action will spawn many anti-Israel terrorists. — Punshhh
Ability to do something is important also. And naturally with the Palestinians, the PA has been quite well sidelined and the message hammered to the Palestinians that they are going to be pushed out (in Gaza now, but perhaps in the West Bank later too), so only way is to fight.Apparently, that doesn't apply to Palestinians, in any case though, so ... oh well. — AmadeusD
the ethnic cleansing is being carried out and endorsed by Western forces who are bound by human rights protocols and live by, or so they proclaim the morality of free and fair societies — Punshhh
You're damn right, comrade! :mask:↪180 Proof You're just biased and the guardian is a leftist rag. — Benkei
1 Feb. 2024. Are all the hostages either returned or accounted for? Has Hamas surrendered them, or the Palestinians insisted their government return them? Have the people responsible for atrocities on 7 Oct. surrendered or been apprehended? The answers to these and like questions is just a string of nos. But you have tender feelings for the murderers and rapists of 7 Oct. and the people who support them. So tender in fact one is obliged to consider unsavory conclusions about you yourself. I'm thinking Hamas and the Palestinians can stop the war almost immediately - but it appears they do not want it to stop. And the Israelis cannot reasonably just stop it by themselves short of achieving at least some of their expressed goals, and certainly gaining the release and return of hostages.Addendum to.... — 180 Proof
But I guess it's convenient to portray Israel as the little guy facing off a huge powerful menace. — ssu
Israel's survival should not be taken as a given. Jews know very well that the unthinkable can happen [...] — BitconnectCarlos
[...] and the world will very much let it happen. — BitconnectCarlos
So what's your argument for the reason of Indonesia and Malesia wanting to attack Israel? :snicker:It very well can be; it depends on the scale. Are we talking just the IDF vs Hamas? Then obviously no. But what if it's Israel versus the muslim world/those who strive to spread Islam? Then it does start to look a bit like that. — BitconnectCarlos
Survival of the Palestinians in Gaza shouldn't be taken as a given!Israel's survival should not be taken as a given. — BitconnectCarlos
Personally I don't have anything against Jews or Israeli Jews. I've met few, they were very smart people and actually didn't like how politics were going in their country, but naturally were very patriotic. Yes, the truth is that those lunatics dancing around in meetings and purposing new settlements in Gaza with the "voluntary removal" of Palestinians won't create empathy for the Jewish cause.Regarding anti-semitism, the scale of it is shocking if you look at the stats. Cultural factors have me worried as well. Jews are the canary in the coal mine. — BitconnectCarlos
I'm sure at the end of the day many a victim card will be played, but how long hasn't the world been spurring Israel on to find solutions, and how many times has Israel refused? — Tzeentch
Just curious. What if Israel completely withdrew to 67 borders said that Palestinians have a state now (whatever that entails), and the Palestinians in charge within a few weeks launch a campaign dividing Israel in half, launching missiles from the high ground in the West Bank, and starts to form a siege on all major Israeli cities. — schopenhauer1
If a hypothetical future state of Palestine were to attack Israel, then Israel could rightfully claim self-defense and if it were unable to protect itself call upon the international community to intervene on its behalf. — Tzeentch
And I agree roughly with your post.
Whatever solution eventually is agreed upon, it would have to take place gradually and under supervision, and in dialogue with the rest of the region. — Tzeentch
As we've discussed, the most logical solution to my mind would not be a two-state, but a one-state solution: equal rights for all. — Tzeentch
Yes, I get that from your vantage point. Israel doesn't want to even be put in that position in the first place, and that is understandable from their viewpoint. — schopenhauer1
At the end of the day the Jews in Israel do not want to dissolve their status as a Jewish state. — schopenhauer1
Don't forget too, Europe is replete with bloody wars that has set the borders in place [...] — schopenhauer1
Boundless arrogance? Where is international law after 7 Oct.? A more honest and accurate appraisal is that Israel is the law, their authority derived from the simplest principle and ground there is, the right to self-defense.Worse still, in their boundless arrogance Israel and the United States undermine the international rule of law, — Tzeentch
But it seems clear to me that Hamas and the Palestinians simply are not interested, being instead explicitly committed to the elimination by any means of Israel and Jews, which policy they actively pursue. That in turn does not leave a lot of choices for the Israelis, which in turn leads us back around to the question of who is really in control. I think - putting it simply - that Hamas and the Palestinians are in control, and what they're getting and have is what they wanted, worked for, and got. In doing they have fashioned themselves a plague, one that must mutate to a more human standard or be otherwise cured or eliminated. — tim wood
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