• Count Timothy von Icarus
    2.8k
    Intro:

    A set of properties A supervenes upon another set B just in case no two things can differ with respect to A-properties without also differing with respect to their B-properties. In slogan form, “there cannot be an A-difference without a B-difference”.

    So, in physicalist philosophy of mind we should like to say something like: "you cannot have variance in a subject's mental state (A) without some change in their physical constituents (B)." Two subjects that are physically identical must have the same mental properties/experiences. However, crucially this is not a one-to-one relationship. Subjects might have different physical properties and yet have the same experiences (as measured over some given duration). Mental states are multiply realizable in terms of physical states.

    One of the things that has become re supervenience is that the above definition is wholly inadequate to do the job supervenience is brought in to do. This leads to the introduction of two new concepts: P-Regions and B-Minimal Properties. What I will try to show here is why these both end up with significant difficulties.

    What is the job we'd like superveniance to do? We'd like to show how the mental is in some way dependant on the physical, whereas the physical is not dependant on the mental in this same way.

    Local and Global Supervenience

    Global supervenience can be defined in two ways. First, we could say that two worlds cannot differ in their mental properties without differing in their physical properties. Agents in a world cannot experience different mental events, but have the same physical properties.

    This ends up being an inadequate definition. Consider this example. World A is identical to World B except for the fact that in World B there is an extra molecule of dust on Mars. Given our definition, it is now possible for every entity in World A to have experiences that differ from those in World B. There is a B difference, so we can have all the A differences we like.

    Local Superveniance tries to get around this issue with the formulation along the lines of "two entities' experiences cannot differ without some difference in their physical constituents. If Sue and Jane are physically identical, they cannot have different mental properties. Does this fix the problem?

    Consider the case where Sue and Jane are physically identical, except for the fact that Sue has an extra red blood cell floating around in her blood steam. It now seems like Sue can have entirely different mental properties without violating a local superveniance defined solely by "no change in A without a change in B." There is a variance in B, so now it seems any changes in A are up for grabs.

    Introducing P-Regions and B-Minimal Properties

    To avoid this problem, and problems related to relational/extrinsic properties, we can invoke the concept of P-regions, regions of space-time defined as "incorporating all the relevant physical 'stuff' needed to explain the physical side of the mental phenomena we are analyzing." Alternatively, we can go with Kim's "B-minimal" properties, where what is "B-minimal," is just those physical properties that are needed to explain the mental phenomena.

    So, for example, we might allow that the body of a runner could change in very many ways without it affecting their gait, and so while "the running depends on the body," we only need define superveniance in terms of the relevant B-minimal properties of the body that relate to the running (or only the P region that incorporates all those properties).

    The Problems

    I am skeptical of these approaches because it seems that, to properly explain a person's mental life throughout the day, we must continually adjust what constitutes our P-Region or B-minimal properties. And just how are these two going to be defined? In relation to the very mental properties, we are examining. So, consider the case when we cut an hour of some person's experience up into 10 second durations. As they perform different mental activities, the relevant P-Region swings around wildly and frenetically, as do the B-Minimal properties.

    If we allow for a "global workspace," model of self-conscious, recursive awareness, then the P-Region involved in explaining that awareness would have to look akin to a candle flame, changing moment to moment, constantly involving different physical constituents.

    Consider the P-Region corresponding to our "zoning out" in deep thought, unaware of what we are hearing except perhaps in some disinterested, half unconscious way (T1). Then suppose that over the next interval (T2) we begin "listening intently," after we hear our neighbors screaming at one another.

    Our awareness of the sounds of screaming has caused us to shift our focus, and as a result what is B Minimal or P relevant has to shift in order to describe this next interval. Physical properties that could be ignored in terms of the first interval have now become essential to self-conscious awareness in the second. The presence or absence of some of these physical properties was indiscernible to the agent during the first interval, but not in the second. Whole regions of our auditory cortex suddenly become P relevant, whereas before we could probably ignore more neurons in that specific regions (or more properties of that region).

    Then suppose we realize that the noise is actually coming from a TV, nothing to worry about. We stop listening intently. Again, the relevant spatio-temporal region / physical properties must radically change so as to match what is necessary to produce the corresponding conscious awareness.

    This seems very much like the cart is driving the horse. We are saying that A cannot vary without a variance in B, but then B has to constantly be redefined in terms of what A is. That A cannot change without a change in B is tautological because B is defined in terms of A such that something is only said to be B in virtue of its being essential to A. If A changes, we are forced to redefine (change) B. But if the definition of B is malleable in this way, then it seems A can change all it likes, and B will necessarily change with it because B is defined by A, the opposite of the relationship we wanted to have.

    "But doesn't B at least determine any changes in A?"

    No, which seems to make the problem more acute.

    Consider two intervals T1 and T2, with corresponding B-minimal physical properties P1 and P2, and corresponding mental properties M1 and M2. It is the case that the P-Region or B-Minimal properties corresponding to T1 do not give us all the information we need to determine the mental contents of M2. P1 has been defined so as to only contain what is absolutely necessary for M1, and so it is possible for it to leave out physical properties that are required to show how P1 evolves into P2. To be sure, we could define a new P-Region or set of B-Minimal properties for T1 + T2. However, this doesn't get around the problem that P1 does not uniquely determine P2, and thus cannot uniquely determine M2.

    So now we have a case where P cannot vary without variance in M, where P is P only in virtue of its relation to M, and where P does not specify future states of M (or future states of P). This does not seem like supervenience accomplishing the job envisioned for it. That is, we'd like to show how the mental is in some way dependant on the physical, whereas the physical is not dependant on the mental in this same way — but here it seems like the two are mutually dependent such that changes in M entail changes in P AND neither current states of M nor P determine future states of M or P.

    Aside from this, there is also the problem of P-regions ballooning in size quite rapidly if we take into account what is causally necessary to produce any instance of mental life that lasts for a meaningful duration. For example, one cannot spend an hour reading a book outside using the sun's light without the sun itself being a causal factor in that instance of mental experience. Granted, the whole Sun isn't necessary for the experience, we might remove some hydrogen atoms from it and have the experience remain unchanged, but we also can't do without something instantiating the same B-Minimal properties.
  • flannel jesus
    1.8k
    So, in physicalist philosophy of mind we should like to say something like: "you cannot have variance in a subject's mental state (A) without some change in their physical constituents (B)." Two subjects that are physically identical must have the same mental properties/experiences. However, crucially this is not a one-to-one relationship. Subjects might have different physical properties and yet have the same experiences (as measured over some given duration). Mental states are multiply realizable in terms of physical states.Count Timothy von Icarus

    Yeah, I think this is agreeable.

    the above definition is wholly inadequate to do the job supervenience is brought in to do.Count Timothy von Icarus

    I think it would help the clarity of your post if you spelled out what that is.

    After reading through the various "problems" you described, I can't say I personally see them as real problems.
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    2.8k


    I edited to clarify.

    In general, we want to use superveniance to explain in some way how the mental is in some way dependant on the physical, whereas the physical is not dependant on the mental in this same way — but here it seems like the two are mutually dependent such that changes in M entail changes in P AND neither current states of M nor P determine future states of M or P. You could argue that this is a purely epistemic problem, that the relationship only seems to go both ways because our only way to define P is in terms of M, but that the ontological dependence only goes one way. However, superveniance famously fails to ground such ontological dependence and is already a sort of halfway house that exists due to the problems in defining this dependence. Thus, this still seems to be "the cart driving the horse." P is P iff P → M.

    We'd like to say that (given determinism) the physical determines all future mental states, and yet it doesn't seem to work that way using these definitions of superveniance. However, if we dispense with P-Regions and B-Minimal Properties, we now have the problems they were brought in to fix returning.
  • flannel jesus
    1.8k
    we want to use superveniance to explain in some way how the mental is in some way dependant on the physicalCount Timothy von Icarus

    Supervenience isn't an explanation in itself. It's more of a category. It's a way of categorising models, and the MODELS are the things that have the potential to explain.

    Perhaps that's why I don't see the problems that you see. The problems you point out are where supervenience fails to explain something, or fails to rule out things that would be *bad* explanations. I don't see that as a problem, because I have much smaller ambitions for what supervenience is supposed to be.

    It is not an explanation, it is a category of models.

    Specifically, one might say that physicalist or materialist models of the mind MUST be supervenient in that specific sense - they must be supervenient such that any change in a mind must also come with a change in matter. You cannot have two different minds which are not also different materially, according to this category of model.

    Non materialist or non physicalist models do NOT need to have the above relationship of supervenience hold.

    That isn't an explanation, and I don't think it's meant to be.
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    2.8k
    That's a fair point. I suppose it's also worth considering that while B-Minimal properties remove the possibility of multiple realizability, perhaps they also obviate the need for it? But I still think they do so in a way that is circular enough that it warrants questioning. As in, "wouldn't it be nice if we could avoid that circularity?"
  • J
    623
    superveniance famously fails to ground such ontological dependenceCount Timothy von Icarus

    Could you refer us to a paper or discussion about this?

    It seems like the two are mutually dependent such that changes in M entail changes in P AND neither current states of M nor P determine future states of M or P.Count Timothy von Icarus

    This is an important implication, and I'm glad you brought it out. If one is looking for a different, non-supervenience-based model of how the physical and the mental are related, some kind of mutual dependence is a natural substitute. But of course this is very hard to describe or understand with our current (pathetically limited) knowledge about what consciousness is, and whether downward causation (mental to physical) is even possible.

    B-Minimal properties remove the possibility of multiple realizability, perhaps they also obviate the need for it?Count Timothy von Icarus

    Yes. If you're not a friend of multiple realizability, this is probably the way to go.
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    2.8k


    Ha, not to go back on my OP, but I am now thinking that B-Minimal Properties do not rule out multiple realizability in an important sense. If we consider the experience of a person taking a stroll outside and a "brain in a vat," having an identical experience, it would simply be the case that the B-minimal properties of both physical systems are identical. But identical B-minimal properties do not entail identical P-Regions (or physical constituents). The B-minimal properties are abstracted from the physical system.

    The P-Region approach still rules out multiple realizability though.

    Perhaps by merging them it's possible to get the best of both worlds?

    I would very much like for B-Minimal properties to be a solid concept because it seems possible to use them to articulate a form of direct realism vis-á-vis the objects of perception. There is a one to one correspondence between B-minimal properties and what is experienced, and this seems like exactly the sort of "direct" connection a direct realist is looking for. Moreover, it seems to truck well with Aristotlean and Thomistic explanations of perception, which have already been well developed.
  • J
    623
    No, I think your OP is right. I suppose it depends on whether we can really imagine that "identical B-minimal properties do not entail identical P-regions". This degree of abstraction requires that B-minimal properties could be successfully identified without specifying P-regions, which seems doubtful. What is one of these "properties" supposed to be, anyway, if it isn't defined by its location in space-time? But I guess I'm just calling into question the intelligibility of the whole multiple-realization model. It may not depend on which way we go on B-minimal properties, but rather on whether functionalism, broadly interpreted, can make sense of the physical/mental world at all. Time will tell . . .
  • 180 Proof
    15.4k
    we want to use superveniance to explain in some way how the mental is in some way dependant on the physical
    — Count Timothy von Icarus

    Supervenience isn't an explanation in itself. It's more of a category. It's a way of categorising models, and the MODELS are the things that have the potential to explain.
    flannel jesus
    :100: :up:
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    2.8k


    An example might be helpful.

    Consider the experience of seeing an apple. It seems plausible that physical constituents of the apple could vary dramatically without there being any discernible differences in the experience of the apple. For example, suppose we could generate an identical experience with a fake apple made of largely different chemical constituents, but which is indiscernible in appearance from the viewer's current position.

    So M remains the same, while P could vary widely. Only parts of P that uniquely specify M are B-minimal, so the chemical composition of the apple can vary, likely significantly, but not any property of it that contributes to experience (e.g. it must reflect wavelengths that are not discernibly different).

    What is one of these "properties" supposed to be, anyway, if it isn't defined by its location in space-time?

    It's just those properties that would result in exactly the same mental experience.

    One might think that the B-minimal properties will always be located solely in the brain for this reason, but this is not the case. For one frozen instant of perception, this might hold, but if you are analyzing a duration where someone turns their head to see an apple, then it seems like there has to be something external to the brain that causes the apple to be seen in part of the total physical properties that account for the mental phenomena. It's possible to abstract a model where there is only "brain states," but then how one brain state progresses to the next will be unexplainable in terms of just the brain states themselves, since external factors play a role (even for the brain in the vat).

    I don't think the one to one relationship would be as much of an issue if P uniquely specified future evolutions of M, while M did not uniquely specify future states of P, but this is not the case. P cannot uniquely specify evolutions of M because the relevant P Region or B Minimal properties are always changing.

    I guess this gets at a larger problem in superveniance re demarcation. There is a similar question that comes up when we ask about superveniance in terms of a candle flame or "the edge of the forest."
  • wonderer1
    2.2k
    Perhaps that's why I don't see the problems that you see. The problems you point out are where supervenience fails to explain something, or fails to rule out things that would be *bad* explanations. I don't see that as a problem, because I have much smaller ambitions for what supervenience is supposed to be.flannel jesus

    :up:
  • wonderer1
    2.2k
    As in, "wouldn't it be nice if we could avoid that circularity?"Count Timothy von Icarus

    Consider the degree to which people interact with the the world, including each other, avoiding circularity seems rather unrealistic. Just try to comprehend the feedback loops involved in the interactions of two good friends over a period of years, and perhaps the naivete of avoiding circularity will be obvious.

    For me, as an electrical engineer, dealing with loopy causality is routine. So I can understand this not being so obvious to others. However to me the OP issues seem more a matter of trying to fit the complexity of the situation into an overly simplistic box.
  • J
    623
    OK, I thought you were referring to brain states (P) giving rise to mental states (M). The P ("exterior" object) to M (perception of it) is different, I think. For the latter case, it's trivially true that all the Ps have to be unique, if there is more than one perception. (This is assuming that P must include a temporal dimension.). And we could generously allow that the M states are identical across perceptions, though this is by no means certain. But how does this bear on the multiple-realizability question? Is there even such a question with regard to this kind of example? We could talk about "multiple realizability" of perceptions of an apple, but this won't tell us what we want to know about the relationship between physical brain states and the mental events.

    Perhaps, to make the two kinds of examples clearer, we could eliminate the "exterior" perception entirely and instead ask, "Is your thought of 7 + 5 = 12 realizable in my mind as well? If so, is this because our respective neuronal arrangements are/must be identical?"
  • Mark Nyquist
    774

    I'm just lost here because I can't follow the math.
    I try but it ends up dissolving on me after just a few sentences. Errrr.

    The subject interests me though.

    Could you or others occasionally comment in non mathematical summaries....dumb it down just a little so I can follow.

    I'm wondering about mental representations. I'm thinking you are discussing some model of mental mapping as you mention physicalism.
    Is this a reductionist model? Actually what interests me is going the opposite way of reductionism such as mental agency. Things like testing external environments, interactions, real world mental process. If that's out of bounds just explain it simply and I'll try to follow.
  • flannel jesus
    1.8k
    I don't think there's really any mathematics here at all.
  • Mark Nyquist
    774

    It's all word salad to me.
  • hypericin
    1.6k
    Consider a painting of a :flower:. It shouldn't be controversial that the :flower: is supervienant on the brush strokes that compose it. You cannot change the :flower: without changing the brush strokes. But, you can change the brush strokes without changing the :flower: .

    But you say, what if I make a tiny dab of paint? Then, any change at all might happen to the :flower: , or it may change into a :death: , and you can point to that tiny dab as the cause.

    But, it is already presumed by our understanding of painting that the dab cannot cause this change. All supervenience says is that a change in the :flower: must be accompanied by a change in the brush strokes. Furthermore to supervenience, we understand the sort of change necessary to change the painting is not matched by the tiny dab. Supervenience does not provide this domain specific understanding, you are asking too much of it.
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    2.8k


    Consider a painting of a :flower:. It shouldn't be controversial that the :flower: is supervienant on the brush strokes that compose it. You cannot change the :flower: without changing the brush strokes. But, you can change the brush strokes without changing the :flower: .

    If you are defining superveniance with B-minimal properties or P Regions this is not the case. Any change in P, the (relevant) brush strokes (or their properties) would, by definition, be a change in the experience/aesthetic qualities of the painting. Multiple realizability is sacrificed by using these methods to define superveniance.

    Without multiple realizability though, is there any reason to say the physical supervenes on the mental, but that the mental doesn't supervene on the physical, or vice versa?The relationship is completely bidirectional. "There is not A difference without B difference," becomes "neither A nor B can differ without both differing."

    Under the standard definition of local superveniance what you say is true. However, we can consider if this does the job of being able to explain what exactly supervenes on what. Should adding a single atom to the back of a painting allow it to have entirely different aesthetic properties or completely change a subject's experience of it? Well, with this sort of loose local superveniance, this is possible. Any difference in P allows for any difference in M.

    This sort of case, e.g., physically identical worlds, but for one extra molecule on Mars, being able to have entirely different mental properties, has widely been seen as a problem for superveniance.

    But maybe B-minimal properties don't even save us from this sort of difficulty. After all, consider what happens if we have two physically identical versions of Sally watching a movie. They are physically identical in every way except that, for Sally-2, the B-minimal properties corresponding to Sally-1's experiencing a small smudge on her glasses have been slightly, but discernibly altered. Now it seems that Sally -2 can have had a completely different perceptual experience of the film because there is some variance in B-minimal properties, which allows for any variance in mental properties. A similar issue exists for P-Regions.

    So maybe a more acute problem for B-Minimal Properties and P Regions is that they fail to fix the problem they are brought in to explain, i.e., how some slight variance in P can lead to any variance in M.
  • hypericin
    1.6k
    If you are defining superveniance with B-minimal properties or P Regions this is not the case. Any change in P, the (relevant) brush strokes (or their properties) would, by definition, be a change in the experience/aesthetic qualities of the painting. Multiple realizability is sacrificed by using these methods to define superveniance.Count Timothy von Icarus

    Is this really true? While I am unfamiliar with these concepts beyond what you wrote, this doesn't seem right.

    To continue my example, paint on canvas is what is "incorporating all the relevant physical 'stuff' needed to explain the physical side of the phenomena we are analyzing.", and the reflectance of the canvas is "just those physical properties that are needed to explain" the impression of the painting. And to use your sort of counterexample, suppose we move a molecule of pigment a nanometer to the left. This changes the relevant physical stuff, and its properties, but just not enough to alter the painting's impression.

    Physical reality is so fine grained that there is always room for multiple realizability. Even if it were possible to overspecify a supervenience relation to eliminate multiple realizability, this would go far beyond the intent of "supervenience", which is just to specify the sort of relationship where a phenomenon depends on a physical substrate.

    To me, these problems (if they are problems) would be resolved simply by defining supervenience as a relationship where "any change in A must be accompanied by an appropriate change in B". What constitutes an "appropriate change" is domain specific, and is beyond the purview of supervenience itself. Supervenience merely indicates that this sort of relationship holds.
  • SophistiCat
    2.2k
    There is a somewhat more detailed introduction found in the IEP article on supervenience, where you can also find references to original publications where these concepts are introduced.

    Ha, not to go back on my OP, but I am now thinking that B-Minimal Properties do not rule out multiple realizability in an important sense.Count Timothy von Icarus

    I don't think any of these attempted precisions are aimed at ruling out multiple realizability. Multiple realizability is a feature, not a bug of supervenience, and I haven't seen anyone actually trying to rule it out.

    If you are defining superveniance with B-minimal properties or P Regions this is not the case. Any change in P, the (relevant) brush strokes (or their properties) would, by definition, be a change in the experience/aesthetic qualities of the painting. Multiple realizability is sacrificed by using these methods to define superveniance.Count Timothy von Icarus

    I don't see how that follows. Supervenience with P-regions or B-minimal properties is still an asymmetric relation: There can be no M-differences without P-differences, but the reverse does not hold.
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    2.8k


    I don't think any of these attempted precisions are aimed at ruling out multiple realizability. Multiple realizability is a feature, not a bug of supervenience, and I haven't seen anyone actually trying to rule it out.

    Yes, exactly. That why P-Regions not allowing for multiple realizability seems like it might be a bug. In general, it seems we would like to have multiple realizability because it suggests that M is dependent on P, not that the two just vary together.

    I don't see how that follows. Supervenience with P-regions or B-minimal properties is still an asymmetric relation: There can be no M-differences without P-differences, but the reverse does not hold.

    A physical entity is part of the P-Region if and only if it is essential to M. This facet is what rules out multiple realizability. If a physical entity can be removed from the system and it doesn't affect M then by definition it in not included in the P-Region. We are now in a situation where P cannot vary unless M also varies (P is in fact defined in terms of M so that this is the case).

    The problem is the same for B-Minimal Properties, but less acute. By definition, a property of a physical system is B-minimal if and only if it is essential to M. So again, if M varies, P must vary. It is a bidriectional correspondence.

    The difference is that B-Minimal Properties themselves seem like the might be multiply realizable through disparate ensembles of matter and energy. If we consider a person looking at an apple, the apple and an indiscernibly similar fake apple might have different physical makeups but instantiate identical B-minimal processes vis-á-vis the viewing subject.
  • SophistiCat
    2.2k
    A physical entity is part of the P-Region if and only if it is essential to M. This facet is what rules out multiple realizability. If a physical entity can be removed from the system and it doesn't affect M then by definition it in not included in the P-Region. We are now in a situation where P cannot vary unless M also varies (P is in fact defined in terms of M so that this is the case).Count Timothy von Icarus

    I think you are mixing up counterfactual possible worlds with different partitions of the same world. All these supervenience definitions are ultimately about counterfactuals: if M supervenes on P, then in a counterfactual world where M is different, P must also be different. The counterfactual world is not different from the actual world in how we choose to draw the boundaries around P.
  • hypericin
    1.6k
    A physical entity is part of the P-Region if and only if it is essential to M. This facet is what rules out multiple realizability. If a physical entity can be removed from the system and it doesn't affect M then by definition it in not included in the P-Region. We are now in a situation where P cannot vary unless M also varies (P is in fact defined in terms of M so that this is the case).Count Timothy von Icarus

    This is not true.

    Let M be the property of an object P being able to depress a pressure sensitive plate. You can remove or add matter to P, and M still holds. Moreover, you can replace P with a different material with the same mass, and M still holds.

    Supervenience defined by P Regions only says that you cannot change the capability of depressing the plate without changing P. But not the converse.
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    2.8k


    Let M be the property of an object P being able to depress a pressure sensitive plate. You can remove or add matter to P, and M still holds. Moreover, you can replace P with a different material with the same mass, and M still holds.

    I don't think so.

    Let's take B-minimal properties first. If all we care about is the plate being depressed, then the B-minimal properties will include the plate apparatus and the property of x amount of force pressing down on the plate. For simplicity, let's think of the plate being depressed or not as a binary, on/off. In this case the B-minimal properties of the object on the plate would be something like "weighing y pounds/grams" where y = the absolute minimum needed to depress the plate.

    In our real world example, the object on the plate might very well weigh more than y, but y doesn't change. Y is the absolute minimum to flip the plate's binary setting from off to on (given all other conditions of the system). Y is fixed by the characteristics of the thing it is trying to explain, it is defined as the minimum force needed to produce an "on" state in the plate. Any change in the amount of force needed to define the on/off state (any change in M) requires that B-min(P) also change. This is because of how B-min(P) itself is defined, as the minimal properties needed to produce M (in this case an "on" state.)

    So, like I said, P is multiply realizable here in one sense. The object on the plate can have all sorts of different chemical compositions. But the B-minimal property of exerting x amount of force on the plate doesn't change when the chemical composition changes. And if the amount of force needed to produce an "on" state is changed or redefined (an M change), then by definition B-min(P) must be redefined since it is defined by exactly what is needed to produce M.

    The P-Region concept is trickier. The way I understand it, we are talking about the actual spatio-temporal region involved in producing M given any one actual instance of M. If something in P-Reg(P) can be removed and M doesn't change, then it shouldn't be in the P-Region in the first place. If something can be added to P-Reg(P) and not change M, then it shouldn't be in the P-Region because it is not essential to M. P-Reg(P) is defined such that something is only included in it if it plays an essential role in producing M. This means P-Reg(P) cannot change unless M changes (no multiple realizability).

    I did consider if we could redefine the P-Region such that the P-Region is "any possible spacio-temporal region that generates M." This turns the P-Region into a set of physical ensembles.

    The problem here is that it essentially turns the P-Region concept into the B-minimal concept. Under this version, the P-Region would just be the set of all possible physical systems with the B-minimal properties associated with M. So, this version of the P-Region has the same sort of multiple realizability that B-Minimal properties do, but at the cost of becoming virtually the same thing.

    But in defining how superveniance works in the real world, I think the unmodified version is more intuitive.

    With the modified version and B-Minimal properties, superveniance becomes defined in terms of a single given mental state and it's relation to a set of possible physical systems, rather than a single physical system.
  • J
    623
    So, this version of the P-Region has the same sort of multiple realizability that B-Minimal properties do, but at the cost of becoming virtually the same thing.Count Timothy von Icarus

    Yes, this is helpful. I agree.

    The way I understand it, we are talking about the actual spatio-temporal region involved in producing M given any one actual instance of M.Count Timothy von Icarus

    This seems to be key. Is an "actual" S-T region one that can only change in certain ways? What I mean is, adding to and subtracting from the mass of P-Reg(P) is doable, in our world. It's a manipulation we can perform on the same region, or at least that's how it seems sensible to think about it. But can we change the physical composition of the substance, without replacing the "actual" example with a different one -- one of the "physical ensembles"? In short, are changes in composition allowed in theory, or does the idea of an "actual" S-T region automatically shut down any such theoretical manipulations?

    I think this question makes sense, but we may be losing sight of why multiple realizability matters in the first place. What we want is an explanation of supervenience that preserves a kind of rough-and-ready causality (no M without P) but doesn't commit us to a S-T causality that is unique, that can only happen once. Any sphere will have the property of roundness. The roundness of SphereA isn't caused in space and time -- you don't start with the sphere at T1 and then get the roundness at T2 -- yet it is a property that supervenes on a specified physical (or mathematical, if you prefer) arrangement. So it ought to be multiply realizable. And then the question gets interesting if we go on to ask, "Are minds and brains like this? Is consciousness a property of the brain? Does that mean that a given thought is multiply realizable? How about an entire mind?" etc.
  • hypericin
    1.6k
    Any change in the amount of force needed to define the on/off state (any change in M) requires that B-min(P) also change.Count Timothy von Icarus

    This is not how I would define a change in M, and it greatly complicates what should be a straightforward example.

    Just considering B-minimal properties:

    M: The on-off state of the plate
    B-min(P): The binarily discretized pressure on the plate. Only greater or lesser than y is relevant.
    deltaM: A change between on off states of the plates
    deltaB-min(P): Pressure on the plate crossing the y threshold
    Supervenience: No change in on-off states without crossing the y threshold (no deltaM without deltaB-min(P) )

    Here, M is perfectly multiply realizable, because B-min(P) is multiply realizable: all sorts of things can apply pressures greater and lesser than y.

    While I see why you want to consider changes in y, since it parallels the concern of your op, that goes beyond the simple supervenience relationship of the pressure plate.

    Do you agree with how I've laid out these terms?
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    2.8k


    I'd have to go back to the original article to see how it is intended. It does seem to me that the idea of the P-Region corresponding to the actual region responsible for any real instance of M is more useful, simply because the B-minimal idea seems to cover the "set of P-regions capable of producing M," in a better way.

    I think this is actually useful for my intended uses. If some elements of perception are tied to B-minimal properties that are instantiated outside the brain, and if any one instance of M is realized by only one P-Region, then it seems that some elements of perception have a one to one correspondence with physical properties of "external objects




    Here, M is perfectly multiply realizable, because B-min(P) is multiply realizable: all sorts of things can apply pressures greater and lesser than y.

    I agree almost, but I think you're a bit off on how a B-minimal property is multiply realizable here. It is multiply realizable in the sense you mention, many different physical systems can apply greater than or equal to y pressure. It is not the case that the B-minimal property itself is multiply realizable, for the property in this case just is "produces greater than or equal to y pressure." If M changes, it is no longer in the on state, it is necessarily the case that whatever P is, it is not longer generating greater than or equal to y pressure, which means it's B-minimal properties have changed.

    That's how they get into a one to one correspondence. Something is B-minimal if and only if changing it is going to change M. So if M changes, P must too. Granted B-min(P) can be actualized in many systems (sets of possible P-Regions).
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