Racism isn't a thing of the past. Look at all the unarmed Black men and children shot and killed by White policepeople. Also, there is still inordinate hiring in Tech firms and other industries where POC are a great minority, particularly in the boardroom. And there were also really ugly racist comments and signs made by members of the Tea Party and other people on the Far Right about Obama during his presidency

And without the help of White people there wouldn't have been racism against Blacks. Whites held, raped, and killed the slaves. Whites lynched and terrorized Blacks in the South and North, and Whites set rules of segregation and Jim Crow. So, Whites can hardly hang their heads high for ending racism when they were the major spreaders of and participants in it in the US.

And the fact Blacks, and Native Americans, and Latinos, and the Japanese Americans have forgiven Whites and, for the most part, do not hold it against us for what our ancestors did and some of us still do, shows Blacks and other POC have shown great sympathy towards us.

I understand who is the victim and who the perp. I don't want to downplay the great struggle of black people but it's a fact that racism has been purged from the political sphere, at least in spirit. This is an achievement. May be it didn't trickle down to the people, their attitudes and behavior, but it is illegal to discriminate by race.

Also, just for the moment, allow the simplifications I've made in the narrative and answer my question:

Is there a black person who's a white supremacist?

I understand who is the victim and who the perp. I don't want to downplay the great struggle of black people but it's a fact that racism has been purged from the political sphere, at least in spirit. This is an achievement. May be it didn't trickle down to the people, their attitudes and behavior, but it is illegal to discriminate by race.

It is not a fact that racism has been purged from the political sphere, and you haven't shown it has. The fact unarmed Black adults and children are still being rampantly killed by police, who represent the government, proves it hasn't. And whether or not it is illegal to discriminate by race, many industries do and are not punished for it.

And I have no idea if there a Black White supremacist. Why do you ask?

And I have no idea if there a Black White supremacist. Why do you ask — Thanatos Sand

What kind of a worldview would such a person have? It would be self-contradictory at its foundation. Being Black and anti-Black at the same time.

The inquiry is legitmate because the opposite is true. We have white people who are anti-white by supporting racial equality.

The inquiry is legitmate because the opposite is true. We have white people who are anti-white by supporting racial equality.

Ridiculous. White people are not anti-White by supporting racial equality; they are pro-equality and anti-racism.

Ridiculous. White people are not anti-White by supporting racial equality; they are pro-equality and anti-racism — Thanatos Sand

Yes. You're right. I thought of that. Supporting racial equality serves a higher purpose. Anyway, we could wiggle and jiggle until the whole thing becomes pro-something BUT that doesn't change the fact that fighting for the enemy amounts to treachery.

That's beside the point. All I'm asking is ''is there a black person who's a white supremacist?''.

His/her presence would be a contradiction.

His/her absence would be surprising since there are whites fighting for blacks.

Anyway, we could wiggle and jiggle until the whole thing becomes pro-something BUT that doesn't change the fact that fighting for the enemy doesn't amount to treachery.

Sorry, I did no "wiggling and jiggling" and the Blacks were never the White's enemy; we just made them our victims.

As to the Black White supremacist, you'll have to ask someone else. I've never heard of such thing.

Ugh, white people didn't just 'side' with black people as if some two-bit video game. They 'sided' with them over specific political injuries and injustices - lack of political freedom, restrictions on movement, publicly available opportunity (education, employment, access to public facilities, etc). I.e. things white people already had. They weren't fighting for 'black supremacy' (regardless of some of the rhetoric). For your symmetry to work, you'd have to look for political goods that black people have that white people don't. Which of course is bullocks. What an absolute farce of a question.

This is what happens when you have a vapid, shallow understanding of 'equality' that doesn't take into account existing power differentials by which equality actually, really functions in the real world.

Racism is thankfully a thing of the past. Pockets of racial supremacists exist but it's been stamped out in the political domain, if not in practice at least in spirit. — TheMadFool

No, it just isn't true that racism is a thing of the past. It hasn't been purged from the body politic or individual behaviors. Race consciousness is too deep (at this point anyway) for racism to disappear. Maybe "race consciousness" doesn't even need to disappear. "Consciousness of race" isn't the problem. It's systematic discrimination that is the problem.

What keeps blacks in physical and cultural ghettoes are the legacies of policies going back before 1865. Some of the policies which have resulted in ongoing impoverishment of blacks were instituted in the 1930s and later. Two prime examples:

Federally insured home loans were begun in the 1930s. This program was explicitly for white borrowers and was explicitly not for black borrowers. Even though the court ruled the explicit policy unconstitutional, the policy continued as if the court had said nothing. By this policy, blacks were barred from the one means that working and "middle class" people had of accumulating wealth: home ownership in good neighborhoods.

After WWII, the Veterans Administration adopted the federal policy and would not issue federally-insured mortgages to black veterans.

Another federal program that robbed blacks of wealth was the federal highway program. When freeways were planned in the 1950s and 1960s, they frequently were routed through the most stable and viable black communities. Generally these communities were wrecked in the process.

The so-called War on Drugs also had a very negative effect on the black population. A large percent of black men ended up with felony convictions and served time in prison. A felony criminal record practically guarantees that a man will have great difficulty finding work--regardless of skills or education.

Do some blacks identify with white folks? Do some blacks wish they were white? Do some whites identify with blacks? Do some whites wish they were black? Sure, some do. If I were on the bottom of the social heap, I would wish I were like the people on top. Cross cultural identity is not all that unusual. People have various reasons for doing so. Some of the reasons are ideological; some are guilt based; some are opportunistic; some are sexual; all sorts of reasons.

Is the song "White Boys / White Boys" from the 1960s musical HAIR racist? Or progress?

In other words, was/is there a black man/woman who sympathized with white folks? — TheMadFool

It was not only kings who believed in the divine right of kings. Institutionalised prejudice becomes reality, and you might as well be asking if poor people ever value money.

The term generally used if you want to investigate is 'internalised racism'. There is much written about how black and mixed folks straighten their hair, lighten their skin with bleach and other noxious substances, favour lighter skinned partners, put pegs on their children's noses to try and westernise them, and teach themselves and their children to permanently purse their lips to make them seem thinner. And that's just the beginning.

may sound crazy or stupid or both (TheMadFool remember?) but my question is, is/was there an opposite to this general truth? In other words, was/is there a black man/woman who sympathized with white folks? To take it to the extreme, was/is there a black man who was/is a white supremacist? — TheMadFool

I think the question makes more sense if you separate race from culture, and assume that there are such relatively stable things as black and white culture.

If that distinction is made, then there are clearly black people who criticize general cultural trends within the wider 'black community' in favor of more traditional stereotypes of white (i.e. Western European) culture.

Of course race and culture are often aligned and therefore conflated. But we obviously see cases where white people identify more with black culture and, as mentioned, those in which black people identify with the dominant values and beliefs of white culture.

I prefer to see these identities as fluid rather than fixed, and also intermingling in such as way that all of us--regardless of ancestry--somehow benefit from being exposed to differing perspectives.

And the fact Blacks, and Native Americans, and Latinos, and the Japanese Americans have forgiven Whites and, for the most part, do not hold it against us for what our ancestors did and some of us still do, shows Blacks and other POC have shown great sympathy towards us. — Thanatos Sand

Not sure if this is the case. There's a ton of racial resentment--admittedly on 'both' sides these days--based upon historical grievances.

Identity politics has IMO contributed quite a bit to this phenomena of increased racial antagonisms. In fact, during the US presidential election I heard many a Democrat express absolute joy at the coming demise of the political power and influence of white middle and lower class voters. They often made no attempt to conceal the one group they do not represent, i.e. older white men, by conspicuously failing to mention them among those they do represent: blacks, Latinos, young people, women, etc. Reminds me of Carl Schmitt's friend/enemy distinction (as I understand it) as constituting the essence of politics.

That's just an observation and not at all meant to absolve white people from the legitimate grievances (both past and present) that often motivate POC to undertake political, social, cultural, and economic action against what they perceive to be an unjust status quo still largely dominated by those old white men.

I won't actively participate in this thread, but I wanted to throw this into the mix: There has been historic slavery of white people. For some reason this gets ignored in favour of a narrative where white people are always and only the oppressors. Anyway, it's something for you to Google.

And the fact Blacks, and Native Americans, and Latinos, and the Japanese Americans have forgiven Whites and, for the most part, do not hold it against us for what our ancestors did and some of us still do, shows Blacks and other POC have shown great sympathy towards us.
— Thanatos Sand

Not sure if this is the case. There's a ton of racial resentment--admittedly on 'both' sides these days--based upon historical grievances.

This is the case. And the fact there is racial resentment--mostly deserved, some undeserved--doesnt' change that fact.

Identity politics has IMO contributed quite a bit to this phenomena of increased racial antagonisms. In fact, during the US presidential election I heard many a Democrat express absolute joy at the coming demise of the political power and influence of white middle and lower class voters. They often made no attempt to conceal the one group they do not represent, i.e. older white men, by conspicuously failing to mention them among those they do represent: blacks, Latinos, young people, women, etc. Reminds me of Carl Schmitt's friend/enemy distinction (as I understand it) as constituting the essence of politics.

There are certainly anecdotal occurrences like this, but it doesn't change what I wrote. Japanese Americans aren't mostly attacking Whites for the internments. Blacks aren't mostly attacking Whites for their outrageous and still terrible treatment of them, and Native Americans arent' mostly spending their time attacking them for the holocaust White Americans and the White American US governments levied on them.

I won't actively participate in this thread, but I wanted to throw this into the mix: There has been historic slavery of white people. For some reason this gets ignored in favour of a narrative where white people are always and only the oppressors. Anyway, it's something for you to Google.

Oh boy....the "whites were slaves, too" narrative so popular among White supremacists.

Oh boy....the "whites were slaves, too" narrative so popular among White supremacists. — Thanatos Sand

I've been rumbled.

As to the Black White supremacist, you'll have to ask someone else. I've never heard of such thing — Thanatos Sand

But why?

from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved. — Charles Darwin

If Darwin is right, this form too should've evolved. There's nothing impossible about it. There are whites who fight for blacks. So, the converse should be there.

As to the Black White supremacist, you'll have to ask someone else. I've never heard of such thing
— Thanatos Sand

But why?

You say you've never heard of it yourself, so your question is ridiculous.

from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.
— Charles Darwin

If Darwin is right, this form too should've evolved. There's nothing impossible about it. There are whites who fight for blacks. So, the converse should be there.

Except your problem, and its a racist one, is you see Whites fighting for equality and human rights for Blacks as "Black supremacists." They are not and that's an ugly notion. So, is your notion that a Black person fighting for rights for particular Whties--like poor or Gay Whites--would be "Black White supremacists". Again, that's not only nonsensical; it's offensive.

Biological race does not exist.

Race is a cultural construct.

See the American Anthropological Association Statement on Race.

If you want to do your part to end racism, reject the myth of biological race.

There are certainly anecdotal occurrences like this, but it doesn't change what I wrote. Japanese Americans aren't mostly attacking Whites for the internments. Blacks aren't mostly attacking Whites for their outrageous and still terrible treatment of them, and Native Americans arent' mostly spending their time attacking them for the holocaust White Americans and the White American US governments levied on them. — Thanatos Sand

I do hope you're right about this, Thanatos Sand, but it just seems to me that with the presidencies of both Obama and now Trump we've become more racially polarized as a society than was the case when I was a kid in the 1980's. Not that things were perfect then by any stretch (e.g. Rodney King and the LA Riots, OJ Simpson Trial, etc.), and it's quite possible that some of this increased awareness of racial tension on my part could be due to the abundance of partisan and manipulative news sources, which pander to the prejudices of their intended audience through the frequent use of confirmation bias. But I still think we've regressed a bit overall in that time frame, and that racial relations are getting worse rather than better.

Also, I don't think harboring deep grudges against people of other races automatically leads to taking immediate, violent and retributory action against them. This just isn't a feasible course of action for an individual or a group to take, especially among those socially and politically marginalized, unless of course you're willing to die yourself or be sent to prison for a very long time. I would imagine, however, that the first step in the direction of violence is to demonize or dehumanize your perceived enemy. That much seems obvious, and some of the rhetoric I'm witnessing these days tends in that direction, even yours here which vilifies white people to a certain extent, and perhaps rightly so given our dark history. European Antisemitism predated the Holocaust, for instance, and the latter was only possible once these historical resentments against Jews became aligned with political power capable of acting upon them.

Anyhow, if you're privy to any recent studies comparing racial attitudes over the past few decades then I'd like to take a look at them, and will happily admit my error if you're right. I'd honestly love to be contradicted on this matter and to be in agreement with you that, on the whole, POC have forgiven us for what our ancestors did to their ancestors, and for what we continue to do to them each day. I'm neither proud nor ashamed of being a white guy. I'll acknowledge the obvious inhumane treatment that non-whites have been subjected to, I will search out wisdom and excellence form any source, regardless of skin color, and do other things that I feel are consistent with the desire to increase racial harmony and understanding.

I'll admit mine is probably a naive and simplistic view, but one of the great things about living in a city like Los Angeles is that you're exposed to a wide variety of people from different racial and cultural backgrounds each day. This being the case, generalizations tend to lose their force as you come across kind and intelligent people of all races, and of course their opposites. This says nothing of systemic racism, which needs to be acknowledged and dealt with as well. For what it's worth the one group I dislike more than any others are rich, stuffy, entitled white people, but even here I have to catch myself in the act of making hasty assumptions about them. I guess I'm much more class conscious than race conscious. This would probably be a different matter if I weren't white.

There are certainly anecdotal occurrences like this, but it doesn't change what I wrote. Japanese Americans aren't mostly attacking Whites for the internments. Blacks aren't mostly attacking Whites for their outrageous and still terrible treatment of them, and Native Americans arent' mostly spending their time attacking them for the holocaust White Americans and the White American US governments levied on them.
— Thanatos Sand

If you'd actually read my post and noticed I'd said "aren't mostly" in every case, you could have avoided wasting your time. If POC hadn't mostly forgiven us, Whites wouldn't mostly be living and working peacefully with them today. We are.

Also, I didn't vilify Whites in any way. Vilification is misrepresentation; I misrepresented nothing. The fact you say I did, really compromises your post. Also, the fact you focus on POC "vilification" of Whites and not a rise of vilification in POC by Whites shows a troubling bias in your post. Lord knows, Whites still greatly demonize or dehumanize POC.

There's an obvious misunderstanding here, which is fine, but accusing me of racial bias for suggesting that racial animosity-- on BOTH sides, which I stated originally--may be on the rise is a conversation stopper. You in your nauseating self-righteousness can read whatever you want into my posts.

But let me ask you one thing: If white people aren't mostly attacking POC, does that mean that racism is non-existent among the vast majority of white people? Why not extend that logic to them by using attacks as the standard with which to judge racial attitudes? Contrary to your imagining that I'm a racist., I say that racism is still prevalent against non-whites, and this despite the fact that it doesn't typically express itself in overt violence.

The only nauseating self-righteousness, and nauseating dishonesty, is yours, as you were clearly emphasizing "anti-White" rhetoric.

Also, I don't think harboring deep grudges against people of other races automatically leads to taking immediate, violent and retributory action against them. This just isn't a feasible course of action for an individual or a group to take, especially among those socially and politically marginalized, unless of course you're willing to die yourself or be sent to prison for a very long time. I would imagine, however, that the first step in the direction of violence is to demonize or dehumanize your perceived enemy. That much seems obvious, and some of the rhetoric I'm witnessing these days tends in that direction, even yours here which vilifies white people to a certain extent, and perhaps rightly so given our dark history.

But let me ask you one thing: If white people aren't mostly attacking POC, does that mean that racism is non-existent among the vast majority of white people? Why not extend that logic to them by using attacks as the standard with which to judge racial attitudes? Contrary to your imagining that I'm a racist., I say that racism is still prevalent against non-whites, and this despite the fact that it doesn't typically express itself in overt violence.

I never said Whites were mostly racist, so your nauseating self-righteousness, and poor reading, shows again. So, I have no more time for your erroneous posts and your troubling views clearly simmering beneath. I will not read or respond to any more of your posts.

Kinda pissed to be honest that you so grossly misrepresented what I said, and clearly didn't make a genuine attempt to engage in dialogue, or offer empirical support for your position. My points were anecdotal, admittedly, but your equating of what most POC think about white people--and vice versa--based upon the fact that they mostly don't attack them, is questionable IMO. Furthermore, I don't feel I should have to state the obvious, i.e., that white people vilify POC all the time.

You want me to quote the numerous times in this thread where I made very obvious acknowledgements that racism against POC exists, and that the grievances against white people are legitimate? Why did you ignore those comments? Probably assuming I was being disingenuous. I wasn't. I don't have all the answers, unlike you, and will gladly acknowledge that too. Others can judge who the pissy, self-righteous snob is in this conversation.

I got called a white supremacist for pointing out the simple historic fact that white slavery was a thing. You're probably wasting your time here. :P