Paradoxically, this 'cultural-value relativity' is ancient (i.e. pre-modern, pre-"Enlightenment", pre-capitalist) yet also universalist: cosmopolitanism. A horizontally-integrated (i.e. municipal-centric pluralist > "bottom-up") order contra the prevailing vertically-integrated (i.e. hegemonic / nation-centric globalist > "top-down") order – why throughout "official" history such flourishing milieux have always succumbed to (domestic / foreign) tyrannies of one kind or another and not have prevented or withstood them (and the subsequent "emancipatory" need for the (republican yet imperialist) "Enlightenment" project of "Human Rights" universalism)? And if neither cosmopolitanism nor human rightsism, then what – international communism? anarcho-syndicalism? transnational corporatism? autocratic / theocratic populism? :chin:True values arise from the culture of individual societies, they are relative and must be linked to each other in a globalized world by being translated like languages. — Wolfgang
The West thinks that its interpretation of values is the only correct one and tries to impose them on everyone else. — Wolfgang
And this should be noted when these values are excepted by for example by members of the United Nations. Many members aren't Western, don't share similar history and have different starting points for how they understand their society from the way Western individualism understands societies. And that does say a lot.True values arise from the culture of individual societies, they are relative and must be linked to each other in a globalized world by being translated like languages. — Wolfgang
If we look only at the military and paramilitary interventions of the USA after 1945, it becomes clear that this is not about morality or the defense of Western values, but exclusively about economic interests. John F. Kennedy fell victim to these interests when he wanted to end the Vietnam War. By ending the war, he would have done too much damage to the military-industrial complex in the United States. Oliver Stone's film on the subject bears witness to this.
If we look only at the military and paramilitary interventions of the USA after 1945, it becomes clear that this is not about morality or the defense of Western values — Wolfgang
Oliver Stone's film on the subject bears witness to this. — Wolfgang
Western thinking - of course it exists - has so clogged up people's brains that it takes an immense epistemological effort to rise from the frog's perspective and build up the maximum distance in order to understand these things. — Wolfgang
Be that as it may, my feeling is there are no rights which aren't legal rights. Unless claimed universal rights are enforceable by law, they may be proclaimed by anyone and will mean nothing, in fact.
Let's not even forget that their war on terror (more like war for oil and for Israel) has indirectly caused heinous crimes in Europe. — Lionino
Let's not even forget that their war on terror (more like war for oil and for Israel) has indirectly caused heinous crimes in Europe.
The freedom of the individual to exchange his commodity labour-power on the market requires his individual freedom. In this respect, the concept of freedom is directly linked to the capitalist mode of production.
Now one may ask what is wrong with that. — Wolfgang
Won't they mean something in that we can point to the evil being done in their violation? Rights, as the defense of the good, seem like they should exist outside of any given system of laws. Molesting children isn't just bad in contexts where it is illegal, or only in cases where there will be punishment. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Won't they mean something in that we can point to the evil being done in their violation? — Count Timothy von Icarus
This seems to beg it's question. The 'evil' seems to consist in the violation of a right. If so, without hte right, there is no evil.
It would be great to know about some inalienable rights, not conferred from on high - but that seems incoherent to me too.
And at any rate, it makes far more sense to replace "Israel" with "Saudi Arabia," given both who the benefits of removing Saddam immediately served and the relation to oil — Count Timothy von Icarus
natural rights — Count Timothy von Icarus
How so? — Count Timothy von Icarus
Question: Begged.
That's the only possible source for 'natural rights'. Hence, it's incoherent to pretend we have some kind of alienable right... from... nowhere.
I can only recommend looking up what question begging actually is — Count Timothy von Icarus
This may be true... You've given no reason to take 'natural rights' seriously, so teh rest of the syllogism isn't apt (in my view.. just outlining clearly what my objection is).but even there the problem you seem to think you've identified is circular reasoning — Count Timothy von Icarus
What's the only possible source for natural rights? — Count Timothy von Icarus
I have to say, the use of a theory isn't particularly interesting if it's trying to justify something which on its face, is absurd (on my view). 'natural rights' isn't a coherent concept, so I'm unsure how I'm supposed to get on with theories that begin with something I can't understand how a rational person would involve.
You consider human nature and the natural world — NOS4A2
and derive a set of rights therefrom, — NOS4A2
rights that would allow one to survive and live a life of dignity and happiness — NOS4A2
I'm not sure you're grasping the immense problem for your account i've laid out:Yes, rights come from men, believe it or not. Yes, men can enforce rights. Are you not of the species? The idea that rights can only come from men of authority or officialdom is both ridiculous and obsequious. — NOS4A2
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