What type of hallucination might be possible? It couldn't be visual, auditory, tactile, or dealing with taste or smell.We can imagine what it may be like for a newborn baby without any sensory perceptions. Even if he or she does not have any capacity to see, hear, smell, touch and taste he or she could still have proprioception. It's possible that his or her brain would hallucinate to fill the sensory gap. — Truth Seeker
How could a being that never had a sense of sight have a visual hallucination? If that was possible, would we not be able to describe vision to people who were born blind? We cannot do that, even with people who are very intelligent, and have always had all their other senses. The scenario under discussion is even more difficult, since the infant never had any amount of sensory input of any kind.It couldn't be visual, auditory, tactile, or dealing with taste or smell.
— Patterner
Couldn't it? — Lionino
How could a being that never had a sense of sight have a visual hallucination? — Patterner
While people who have been blind since birth do indeed dream in visual images, [...] — https://www.wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/2020/02/11/do-blind-people-dream-in-visual-images/
If that was possible, would we not be able to describe vision to people who were born blind? — Patterner
Like this:
While people who have been blind since birth do indeed dream in visual images, [...]
— https://www.wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/2020/02/11/do-blind-people-dream-in-visual-images/ — Lionino
Occipital lobe activity in those blind from birth or early in life
In those with early or congenital blindness, their occipital lobe is still very active. However, that activity happens when they use their other senses, such as smell, hearing and touch. The occipital lobe of a person with blindness also becomes more active when they’re speaking or listening to others talking.
This reassignment of the occipital lobe is a form of neuroplasticity. That’s the term for the brain’s ability to adapt itself to an unusual circumstance or condition.
I quite agree with about it being weak. Assuming the brain at birth is as it would be if eyes had been present, sure, there could be electrical activity in the visual areas. I can produce phosphenes by pressing on my eyes. Maybe phosphenes take place for those born blind. But what the activity they're talking about would "look" like to the person is unknown. They can't know if there are blobs of color.Not necessarily because they can't communicate images and we can't communicate it to them, as they have no outside object to reference with a given word. They could make a language to label the things they see but it would be a sort of private language. — Lionino
I quite agree with ↪wonderer1 about it being weak. — Patterner
In the vast majority of cases, blindness results from problems in the eyes and in the optic nerves, and not in the brain. In the few cases where blindness results from problems in the brain, the person usually regains some amount of vision due to brain plasticity (i.e. the ability of the brain to rewire itself). Therefore, people who have been blind since birth still technically have the ability to experience visual sensations in the brain. They just have nothing sending electrical impulses with visual information to the brain. In other words, they are still capable of having visual experiences. It's just that these experiences cannot originate from the outside world.
Rather, the visual sensations must arise from the electrical fluctuations that originate within the brain.
Regarding the current conversation, the question is, would an infant born without any senses develop a self/mind from the visual, and presumably other, hallucinations? — Patterner
I think there are unconscious dynamics involved in thought. — Nemo2124
Thoughts occur in the brain through a complex interaction of neurons and their networks, involving various brain regions, neurotransmitters, and biological processes. The exact mechanisms are still a subject of ongoing research and debate, but here’s a general overview of how thoughts are believed to be generated:
1. Neural Activity
Thought processes are primarily associated with the activity of neurons, the brain's nerve cells. Neurons communicate with each other through electrical impulses and chemical signals (neurotransmitters). Each neuron connects to thousands of other neurons, forming extensive networks that are the basis for all brain functions, including thinking.
2. Brain Regions Involved
Prefrontal Cortex: This front part of the brain is highly involved in complex cognitive behavior, personality expression, decision making, and moderating social behavior. It plays a critical role in planning complex cognitive behavior and in the expression of thoughts.
Temporal Lobes: These areas of the brain are involved in processing sensory input and are important for understanding language, forming memories, and connecting emotions and senses.
Parietal Lobes: These help in processing sensory information and are key to spatial orientation and navigation, which are important for abstract thinking and reasoning.
Occipital Lobes: Primarily associated with visual processing, these areas are also linked with visual aspects of thought, like imagining or recalling images.
Cerebellum and Basal Ganglia: These structures contribute to coordination and smoothing of thought processes, akin to their roles in smoothing and coordinating motor activity.
3. Role of Neurotransmitters
Neurotransmitters are chemicals in the brain that transmit signals from one neuron to another. Different neurotransmitters are associated with different aspects of thought:
Dopamine: Often linked with motivation and reward feelings, influencing focus and attention.
Serotonin: Plays roles in mood regulation, which can affect the overall tone and quality of thoughts.
Acetylcholine: Important for attention and arousal, influencing learning and short-term memory.
Glutamate and GABA: Primary excitatory and inhibitory neurotransmitters in the brain, crucial for balancing activation and relaxation necessary for smooth thought processes.
4. Cognitive Processes
Thinking involves several cognitive processes, including perception, memory, language understanding, and problem-solving. Thoughts can be triggered by external sensory stimuli or internal cues such as emotions or memories. The integration of information from these various sources allows for the formation of thoughts.
5. Formation and Flow of Thoughts
Thoughts can arise from conscious attention or unconscious processes. The brain continuously processes sensory information and internal states even without conscious focus, contributing to spontaneous or background thought generation.
Thoughts are not isolated but are part of a continuous stream of consciousness, influenced by past experiences, knowledge, current goals, and future anticipations.
6. Neuroplasticity
The brain's ability to reorganize itself by forming new neural connections throughout life, known as neuroplasticity, allows for the continuous development and refinement of thought patterns. Learning and experience lead to changes in these connections, affecting how thoughts are generated and processed.
In summary, thoughts are the result of highly complex and dynamic interactions within the brain's neural networks. They are influenced by various factors, including biological, environmental, and experiential elements. The ongoing research in neuroscience continues to unravel the intricacies of how thoughts are formed and manifest in the brain. — ChatGPT 4
I imagine there would be extremely few circumstances where we would have any confidence of our accuracy.As they won't be able to learn any language, we are not going to know what kind of thoughts or values the hypothetical baby will develop - if any. If they make up their own unique language, we won't be able to translate it. We can try to infer emotions based on facial expressions and body language but I don't know if that would be accurate. We can try to infer values based on actions but again I don't know if that would be accurate. — Truth Seeker
True. But this is just a thought experiment, to see if we can come to any conclusions about the self/mind that we can be reasonably sure of. Imo, we can. At least in regards to human minds.Patterner I am glad no such person actually exists. It would be very hard for them to live. — Truth Seeker
Patterner I am glad no such person actually exists. It would be very hard for them to live.
— Truth Seeker
True. But this is just a thought experiment, to see if we can come to any conclusions about the self/mind that we can be reasonably sure of. Imo, we can. At least in regards to human minds. — Patterner
I don't know how much greater awareness/consciousness/minds can be than ours. I assume there is plenty of room for growth. And I don't know what the least degree of complexity awareness/consciousness/minds can have and still feel greatness, or value, or joy in themselves or anything else. But without that minimal degree giving value, there is nothing. There is no value in anything without something to judge it to be of value. The incomprehensibly, indescribably huge, complex universe would be nothing without something to note the fact of existence. Maybe a fruit fly has what it takes, and feels its own existence.Mind is great. But is life without mind nothing? Or is life nature's "greatness," the essence, and our mind and its constructions (including the topic of this discussion, the so called self) incidental? — ENOAH
On the contrary. I imagine that her life has value. It is she that does not value it, or imagine, or understand these, or any other, concepts, because she does not have the capacity to do so. My consolation is that she does not suffer from her condition, not having any more capacity for suffering than she does for valuing. But I will help keep her alive.Because your hypothetical human's life is being assessed from our perspective, that of a conceited ape, we cannot imagine that her life has value. — ENOAH
I have never said that. I have never even thought that. What I said is that it would be very difficult for them to live if they lacked the capacity to see, hear, taste, touch and smell from the womb to adulthood.we cannot imagine that her life has value. — ENOAH
I think so too. It is difficult not to agree with that. Interestingly, as I'm finding to be common, we may arrive at that belief following (at least slightly) divergent paths. — ENOAH
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