'Moral law is an invention of mankind for the disenfranchisement of the weak. Historical law subverts it at every turn. A moral view can never be proven right or wrong by any ultimate test'. — Jack Cummins
It made me think of the previous movement of the 'moral right', as represented by Mary Whitehouse, which argued against pornography and art forms which showed forms of violence. — Jack Cummins
She said that as it is a charity supporting children, they will not stock CDs, in case there has been any exploitation of children in the making of the music'. — Jack Cummins
What do you think about the relationship between ethics and politics? Also, what is 'right' or 'wrong' about political correctness, and how far should such correctness go in outlawing what may some may regard as being 'offensive'? — Jack Cummins
I don't see why Cormac McCarthy's ideas should be dismissed as simply 'a novel'. — Jack Cummins
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gZM1WQKwpl0Hey you, Whitehouse
Ha, ha, charade you are
You house proud town mouse
Ha, ha, charade you are
You're trying to keep our feelings off the street
You're nearly a real treat
All tight lips and cold feet
And do you feel abused?
You got to stem the evil tide
And keep it all on the inside
Mary you're nearly a treat
Mary you're nearly a treat
But you're really a cry
I think ethics (re: moral agency) is concerned with the cultivation of human flourishing whereas politics (re: solidarity, legitimacy) is concerned with resolving conflicts in ways which to varying degrees arrange (or derange) the material-symbolic conditions for making the cultivation of human flourishing possible.What do you think about the relationship between ethics and politics? — Jack Cummins
"PC" is and always has been useless – "identity politics" shite – and, where it harms more than it helps, it's wrong. Don't be an Asshole or a Cunt! (billboards? PSAs?) – civility & (a little) empathy when in public almost always suffices. Fuck censors, prudes, fundies & other hypocritical, virtue signaling, "offended" twats! :strong: :mask:Also, what is 'right' or 'wrong' about political correctness, and how far should such correctness go in outlawing what may some may regard as being 'offensive'?
... on my short list for The Great American Novel.'Blood Meridian'
:fire:The quote matches the bleak, bereft setting of the book - circumstances where god seems to be missing. — Tom Storm
This seems to me a far more sweeping generalization than the refusal to sell music. Are specific examples given of which moral precept disenfranchises which group of "the weak" - and who they are?'Moral law is an invention of mankind for the disenfranchisement of the weak. — Jack Cummins
Moral "laws" are religious in origin. They connect to civil law through the religious affiliation of those who have sufficient power to influence the law. But moral laws are far more adhered-to by the powerless faithful than their rulers.What is demonstrated in the quote above is the way in which any moral law is based on values and interconnected with power structures. — Jack Cummins
By some people some of the time. Others continue to publish racist slurs and extreme political screeds, personal attacks and obscene literature. A moral precept isn't written into actual law until the majority of lawmakers in some constituency decide it's to their advantage.This may be relevant for thinking about cultural clashes and about ideas of 'political correctness'. In such ideas it may be that values are being upheld to an extreme as though they are 'laws'. — Jack Cummins
I assumed you quoted it because you agree with it, and I wondered on what basis you agree with it.It is true that Cormac McCarthy's statement is an overgeneralisation, and I don't wish to make too much of an issue of this, but your post's quote of it does make it look like mine. — Jack Cummins
You mean it just "feels" like it should be true? Generalizations often feel this way, whether they are accurate or not; they articulate an idea that we have not (?yet) formulated. It's easy to let them slide past without too much scrutiny, and to generalize them even further, onto subjects that engage our attention - whether they are appropriate to those subjects or not.If anything, I saw it as having a Nietzschian feel or criticism of ideas of morality. — Jack Cummins
Morality is entirely a religious idea of what is virtue and what is sin according a god. Of course, that immediately becomes political, since gods are the Wizard-of-Oz puppets of a ruling elite. The secular/societal version of the idea is ethics: how members of a community need to behave in order to preserve peace and order.The role of religion has played such a significant role in ideas of morality. — Jack Cummins
Philosophers are products of their time and culture, like everyone else. Each individual philosopher may question, even reject, some aspect of the prevailing attitudes, while accepting a whole body of thought as the natural order of things. I suppose Nietzsche was more radical then most; because more unhappy and discontented than most, he questioned and rejected more of his society's middle-class mores.If anything, the history of philosophy has been filled with racist and sexist comments. — Jack Cummins
Of course. Every movement is a response to what came before it. People got fed up with the crude jokes, ugly stereotypes, baseless characterizations and casual insults. While subscribing to the principle of freedom of speech, I very much prefer civil public discourse. I don't miss many of the words that were common parlance in my youth. Of course, every movement is a response to what came before it. The backlash against 'political correctness' has been much longer and fiercer than the movement itself was.It may have been that awareness of historical issues of racism and sexism gave rise to the movement of political correctness and wokeism. — Jack Cummins
What do you think about the relationship between ethics and politics?
Also, what is 'right' or 'wrong' about political correctness, and how far should such correctness go in outlawing what may some may regard as being 'offensive'?
I I didn't ask why you printed the quote; I asked on what basis you agree with it. But perhaps you have not yet reflected enough to know whether you do agree with it.My quoting of Cormac McCarthy was on the basis of it being a point worthy of reflection — Jack Cummins
The purview of religious codes is the welfare of the soul - or man's keeping on the right side of his god(s); it rules on matters of sacrifice and penance, sex and marriage, ritual practice and the three rites of passage. Alongside this, there was always a secular law code to rule on mundane matters like business transactions, taxation, land ownership and water rights, as well as orderly public conduct. They're straightforward enough by the lights of each society, according their circumstances and economy.Most moral systems evolved in conjunction with religious worldviews and the move towards more secular ideas has not been straightforward. — Jack Cummins
?? You were talking about 'political correctness'. How did it turn into 'liberation' and to whose liberation from what are you referring?It definitely seems that the backlashes of the present time may be far 'longer and fiercer' than the original movements towards liberation. — Jack Cummins
Maybe, Tom Storm is right to see it as an artistic statement more than anything else and, despite the way McCarthy's book is seen as a literary classic, I wonder to what extent the quote has been looked at as a philosophy statement. If anything, I saw it as having a Nietzschian feel or criticism of ideas of morality. — Jack Cummins
The basis for my partial agreement with Cormac McCarthy is a fairly negative view of human nature, based on reading of history and so much which is going on in the world currently. — Jack Cummins
Granted. We're a mad, bad species with moments of brilliant goodness. I was referring specifically to the statement itself: "Moral law is an invention of mankind for the disenfranchisement of the weak." That's what I was asking: Who are 'the weak' and how do moral laws disenfranchise them? I don't see this in any moral system I'm aware of.The basis for my partial agreement with Cormac McCarthy is a fairly negative view of human nature, based on reading of history and so much which is going on in the world currently. — Jack Cummins
Does that mean all past and current concepts of morality are inauthentic? Or that they don't require self-mastery?The authentic morality would be based on wisdom, or some degree of self-mastery. — Jack Cummins
Aspiring toward perfection is at the center of all religious ideals. But none expect each individual to be capable of perfection; the Abrahamic religions have built in mechanisms to atone for wrong-doing and seek forgiveness for trespasses, in the full expectation that even the most fervent believers will fall short of perfection.However, such self-mastery is not without awareness of one's weaknesses, as opposed to the perfectionism aspired to by the Abrahamic religious traditions. — Jack Cummins
How does that relate to secular ethics? Accusations and hyperbole are cheap, dishonest tactics in a conflict.So much is projection of 'evil' onto others and this is happening in both the left and right of politics, including the backlash against political correctness. — Jack Cummins
I understand your concern, but I think you misplace the origins of the problem. Totalitarianism is not about morality or ethics or law or civil discourse. It's the result of anxiety (insecurity and fear) caused by societal breakdown. Certainly, corruption in the pursuit of wealth and power play a large part in the slow implosion we're witnessing. But it's not because the principles were wrong; it's because the principles are slighted, breached, then abandoned altogether, first by the elite, imitated by the privileged classes, and finally the masses.Such a backlash paves the way for Neo-Nazi totalitarianism and that worry is probably the basis for my incongruous mixture of sources for my initial outpost. — Jack Cummins
The finding of a truly authentic morality is complex because so much is about values handed down during socialisation, with potential for modifications. — Jack Cummins
Very likely. Of course, imagination and projection play a role in all of our complex emotional states, so this would be true of personal hatreds as well as ethnic or class ones.Do you not think that projection is an important aspect of hatred — Jack Cummins
I don't see that. North America was diverse all through the 19th and 20th centuries, and there were plenty of local rivalries, enmities and conflicts, but there was no threat of a megalomaniac taking over the Canadian government or tearing up the US constitution or outlawing opposition parties.As for potential totalitarianism, I see it as an authoritarian response to the existential fear of the panorama of the pluralism, in a multicultural and multifaith/worldviews. — Jack Cummins
I disagree with this. IMO, morality is rooted in empathy. It feels wrong to hurt another person, because we empathize with the one who is hurt. The golden rule formalizes this into a "moral law" of sorts. Assessing what is morally good becomes trickier as situations become more complex, and often there's moral ambiguity - partial goods and partial evils. This opens the door for the perceived "disenfranchisement of the weak" in those cases. It's worthwhile to debate those cases, but I disagree that all moral law should be assumed to motivated by such a cynical motive.Moral law is an invention of mankind for the disenfranchisement of the weak. — Jack Cummins
She's not being immoral, she's being cautious - perhaps overly cautious. Why deal in materials that she has suspicions about? Perhaps her suspicions are irrational, but is that relevant?She said that as it is a charity supporting children, they will not stock CDs, in case there has been any exploitation of children in the making of the music'. — Jack Cummins
This is similar to the charity lady scenario only in that it seems rooted in ignorance and irrationality, but it differs from from the charity scenario in that it represents a movement to generally restrict access to pornography, whereas the charity lady was just choosing not to participate in something she was suspicious about.It made me think of the previous movement of the 'moral right', as represented by Mary Whitehouse, which argued against pornography and art forms which showed forms of violence. It is based on forms of moral absolutism and what is acceptable being enshrined as 'moral law'. — Jack Cummins
Authenticity also involves questioning of social roles and norms. — Jack Cummins
Martyrdom need not be sought deliberately. Many non-religious people put themselves in harm's way in order to uphold a principle - like, say, democracy, racial equality, national identity or economic justice - that they consider important enough.It is questionable to what extent there is a place for philosophical martyrs within secular ethics, however, without the idea of rewards in the afterlife. — Jack Cummins
You are correct to place McCarthy's ideas in America and the quote was in a discussion of war. Nihilism is a position which can be slipped into easily and it involves attitude as opposed to logical arguments. — Jack Cummins
A moral view can never be proven right or wrong by any ultimate test
What is demonstrated in the quote above is the way in which any moral law is based on values and interconnected with power structures. It leads to the idea of the way in which moral views are connected to power structures and interests, even to the point of being ideologies.
She said that as it is a charity supporting children, they will not stock CDs, in case there has been any exploitation of children in the making of the music'. — Jack Cummins
It made me think of the previous movement of the 'moral right', as represented by Mary Whitehouse, which argued against pornography and art forms which showed forms of violence. It is based on forms of moral absolutism and what is acceptable being enshrined as 'moral law'. — Jack Cummins
Also, what is 'right' or 'wrong' about political correctness, and how far should such correctness go in outlawing what may some may regard as being 'offensive'? — Jack Cummins
Um, what the heck is 'historical law'? I have no idea. I am guessing based on your context that you really mean something like 'Pragmatic efficiency'.I am raising the topic as being about the interaction between ethics and politics, based on the following quote from Cormac McCarthy, in his novel, 'Blood Meridian':
'Moral law is an invention of mankind for the disenfranchisement of the weak. Historical law subverts it at every turn. A moral view can never be proven right or wrong by any ultimate test'. — Jack Cummins
I view morality as objective and a law of the universe. The fact that power abuses it DOES NOT reflect on morality in any way. It only reflects on them, the choosers. I think Cormac is a terrible cynic as presented and cynical projection is a lamely immoral way to be. As in if everything is bad that excuses your badness. That is a deeply tedious and wrong world view.What is demonstrated in the quote above is the way in which any moral law is based on values and interconnected with power structures. It leads to the idea of the way in which moral views are connected to power structures and interests, even to the point of being ideologies. — Jack Cummins
Real morality is a law of the universe, yes.This may be relevant for thinking about cultural clashes and about ideas of 'political correctness'. In such ideas it may be that values are being upheld to an extreme as though they are 'laws'. — Jack Cummins
You really cannot track absurdity. It knows no bounds. Best policy is to pull off site and nuke the planet from orbit. It the only way to be sure. Even then the cockroaches that think this way will survive and evolve as any good vault dweller will tell you.For example, I was in a discussion with someone who worked in a charity shop (and I won't name the charity', who told me why the charity won't stock music CDs any longer. She said that as it is a charity supporting children, they will not stock CDs, in case there has been any exploitation of children in the making of the music'. I was stunned because it seemed to be such a sweeping generalisation about music. I would understand if the charity did not wish to stock Gary Glitter's music, or other questionable artists but to outlaw music entirely seemed like political correctness going to the point of absurdity. — Jack Cummins
One must be aware of darkness, almost familiar with it, in order to fight it. Exposure to its various shadows is wise. Those who seek to bury their heads in the cleanest of sands are without hope of being truly virtuous. All they can do is pretend. Don't worry, if they hide their eyes, they cannot see you, and they will in general.It made me think of the previous movement of the 'moral right', as represented by Mary Whitehouse, which argued against pornography and art forms which showed forms of violence. It is based on forms of moral absolutism and what is acceptable being enshrined as 'moral law'. — Jack Cummins
I agree with Kant and Plato both in that sense. Choosers must interpret moral truth because it is esoteric and distant from most people's awareness. It takes invested philosophers to dig it out and frame it back to the general population. That happens the same way any discipline makes itself useful.Kant and others argued for moral law on the basis of a priori principles. Plato argued for ideas of justice and goodness based on forms, however, he saw the elite philosophers as being the influence that mattered, which was a form of authoritarianism. What do you think about the relationship between ethics and politics? Also, what is 'right' or 'wrong' about political correctness, and how far should such correctness go in outlawing what may some may regard as being 'offensive'? — Jack Cummins
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